Let's Talk About Frenzy and Battle Trance

Let me start by saying that, overall, I think the Frenzy skill is in a decent place. My only real gripe is with Battle Frenzy in that the attack speed bonus to other skills is… boring.

Frenzy Duration is moving from a Weapon temper to a Utility temper, meanwhile Flay Duration is moving from a Utility temper to a Weapon temper. These two changes are, taken together, counterintuitive and kind of contradictory. They’re functionally the same temper, they should be of the same temper type. Other than the seeming categorical disconnect, moving Frenzy Duration to a Utility temper presents two additional problems (really, they’re two sides of the same coin):

  1. Now, there are no viable Weapon temper options for Frenzy. You’re either stuck with Elemental Surge, or potentially buffing a supporting skill (and, we’ll get to this last part below when discussing Battle Trance).

  2. Frenzy Duration now has to compete with other highly valuable Utility tempers, like Crowd Control Duration and Lucky Hit: Crowd Control effect. Don’t get me wrong, having meaningful decisions to make is generally a good thing, but I’ll refer back to #1 above and, again, the fact that you essentially removed that same decision from Flay for the equivalent temper effect.

Okay, on to Battle Trance. The S5 changes to Battle Trance are an improvement, but the whole item design is still confusing; it’s not clear to me what your design intention is. For the base affixes, the crit chance and dual passives are much, much better, but the DR is something that Frenzy can already do on its own–it’s not bad, it’s just lackluster. But, the unique affix does two things that confuse the whole design strategy:

  1. The increase to Frenzy’s maximum stacks is fine. I understand that the intent is to add power to Frenzy, but, it does so very awkwardly. Increasing the maximum stacks means that getting to maximum stacks takes longer. Also, stacks accrue individually, but dissipate en masse–meaning, if for some reason, I’m not able to maintain maximum stacks for the base 3-second duration, you lose all stacks simultaneously and have to start all over. This makes the Frenzy Duration temper incredibly valuable, and arguably more valuable with regards to the base mechanics of the skill (Frenzy having stacks to maintain) than Flay Duration is to Flay. (Additionally–and this a semantic nit-pick–being more frenzied isn’t what is usually meant by being in a “trance,” so the function doesn’t fit the name of the item.)

  2. Most of the base affixes, and the first sentence of the unique affix, all to add more power to Frenzy–which makes sense if you’re attempting to make a Frenzy build more functional and “viable.” The second sentence of the unique affix, however, is now doing something entirely different in that it’s buffing my other skills (while, yes, also providing Frenzy with the damage buff). The worst part is that Frenzy, through Battle Frenzy, can already provide an attack speed bonus to my other skills–so this effect isn’t unique even within Frenzy itself.

So, help me out: is Battle Trance intended to be a build-defining unique for a Frenzy build, or is the intention to make Frenzy a support skill for other skills? If it’s the former, then it needs to do more and build fully into Frenzy–a 30% damage bonus on an amulet is quite small, considering I could put Moonrise or Adaptability on a legendary amulet, gaining a 120% damage bonus, while also adding Crit Chance, Wallop, Duelist and tempers and probably get much more out of that amulet. If, however, it’s the latter, then Battle Trance builds too much into Frenzy, and doesn’t do nearly enough to support your other skills–first of all, the vast majority of builds using non-basic skills as their primary damage output do not also need to use a basic skill because you’ve added so many solutions for resource management in the late- and end-game; second of all, it suffers the exact same problem as above–a legendary amulet with more relevant passives and a more impactful aspect will vastly outperform this in every case.

I’m going to take a couple shots at redesigning Battle Trance for specifically a build-defining Frenzy build:

  • Affixes
    • +25% All Res
    • +[7.0-10.0]% Critical Strike Chance ← this could stand to be slightly better than the base affix you can get on a normal amulet
    • +[100-150]% Frenzy size ← this value is set this high because the affix doesn’t exist anywhere else. I set it at a roughly similar value to the combined value of similar tempers if you were to put them on all four weapons
    • +[2-3] to Frenzy
    • +[4-6] to Duelist
  • Power
    • Attacks with Frenzy explode, dealing [4600-9500] fire damage to surrounding enemies.
    • Increase Frenzy’s maximum stacks by 2. You are always at maximum stacks. ← the idea here is like the Hulk in The Avengers: your secret is that you’re always angry

This next one is a bit wild, but stick with me…

  • Affixes
    • +25% All Res
    • +[7.0-10.0]% Critical Strike Chance
    • You don’t generate Fury and can’t gain Fury
    • +[2-3] to Frenzy
    • +[4-6] to Duelist
  • Power
    • Frenzy gains 4%(x) additional damage for every point of Fury missing from your maximum.
    • Killing an enemy or hitting a Boss with Frenzy increases your maximum Fury by [1.0-5.0], up to [10-25].

You might read that last one, see that it provides 400%x base and 500%x at max stacks and think that’s absurdly overpowered (and, that’s without also factoring Maximum Resource you can gain from legendary helmets and Paragon nodes). I would like to point out that the 3rd affix means you will also always be at 0 Fury, meaning you can’t use a Core skill (if you even wanted to), and cannot functionally use Shard of Verathiel, Crown of Lucion, Ring of Starless Skies, Ramaladni’s Magnum Opus, and neither Edgemaster’s nor Adaptability legendary aspects. Most of these are staples, if not down right near-mandatory, for end-game basic builds. This second reworked Battle Trance not only compensates for those losses, but also gives you new things to consider for both skill point allocation and gearing for the build (grumble grumble something about build diversity).

The idea for this last one was a direct reflection on my previous semantic comment about being “more frenzied” doesn’t jive with being in a trance–now, you are IN A TRANCE. You’re not angry or “furious” (because you can’t have Fury). You are serene, caught in the “music only you can hear”–to paraphrase from the flavor text–and you are now more dangerous for finding this trance state-of-mind.

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The attack speed mod needs to be replaced with physical splash damage, and the damage mod needs to be around 70-100%.

Frenzy stacks should fall off 1 by 1, yes, and Frenzy stacks should inherently give movement speed.

I assume their thought process on having the two mods that can increase all attack speed is because Frenzy stacks only increase Frenzy’s attack speed. They could change it to be global attack speed and it would open up some opportunities for some more imaginative combos. Something simple like “all damage refreshes Frenzy stacks” would eliminate the stack duration issue.

The Bash Cleave temper should be “Basic Skills Cleave”. This would more closely align with other class tempers that now have Basic or Core skills have a chance to cast twice, instead of options for each individual skill, and it would give us a usable weapon temper.

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Totally agree with this. It was an interesting choice to add Ranks of Duelist instead of Splash Damage when Frenzy and Battle Trance already have Attack Speed out the wazoo.

Duelist actually helps a lot to clear up IAS on gear. Not a bad choice at all, but doubling down on increasing other skills is dumb, and the 30% multiplier is weak. Better than nothing, but not where it needs to be.

  • Frenzy stacks should increase all attack speed, period, as well as movement speed.
  • Stacks should fall off 1 at a time.
  • Battle Trance needs splash damage in place of increasing attack speed of other skills.
  • Battle Trance multiplier needs to be at least 2-3x higher. By all rights, it should be 100-150% since Adaptability can go up to 120%.

I actually like the ranks of Duelist. The attack speed bonus that Duelist provides is in a different “bucket” from those provided by Frenzy, Battle Frenzy, and Battle Trance. Frenzy is an attack speed build, so receiving bonuses to both cap buckets is both thematic and extremely valuable.

I did not realizd Duelist was in a different bucket than IAS. I know Rupture, Rapid, ans Accelerating are. It is hard to keep track of invisible mechanics.

Wouldn’t gaining Berserking make sense for Frenzy when you gain max stacks considering Berserking grants a Multiplicative Damage Bonus that applies to all Damage and it provides Movement Speed. Sure, you lose a multiplicative bucket where you can gain Berserking elsewhere though. As long as you can keep the stacks up, you are Berserking. Thematically seems right for Frenzy.

IAS and Duelist are in the same bucket (bucket 1). Frenzy, Battle Frenzy and Battle Trance (as well as Rupture, Rapid, and Accelerating) are in bucket 2. (I will say, and what I didn’t mention above, the good thing about Battle Trance increasing max Frenzy stacks to 5 is that it also simply maxes your bucket 2 AS, so, if you had the gear slot space, you don’t–and shouldn’t–need to worry imprinting Rapid.)

There’s still a lot of work to be done, so the data is incomplete, but I would recommend taking a read through the Maxroll Attack Speed Mechanics breakdown for a good list on what bonuses apply to which bucket.

For some reason, I can’t post the link, so if you don’t care to find it, here’s what they have for known and presumed bonuses by bucket (for Barbarian):

Cap 1

  • ‍Moonrise
  • ‍Elixir of Advantage II
  • Attack Speed (Gear Affix)
  • ‍Andariel’s Visage
  • ‍Wild Force
  • ‍Brute
  • ‍Duelist
  • Artillery Shrine (100% AS)

Cap 2

  • ‍Accelerating
  • ‍Rapid
  • Basic Attack Speed (Gear Affix)
  • ‍Frenzy
  • ‍Battle Frenzy
  • ‍Battle Trance
  • ‍Carnage
  • ‍One-Handed Axe Expertise
  • ‍Warrior’s Rupture (Unverified)
  • ‍One-Handed Sword Expertise (Unverified)
  • ‍Walking Arsenal (Unverified)
  • ‍Prime Call of the Ancients (Unverified)
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Thanks for info. It’s been a bit since I considered IAS since I haven’t had a build that prioritized it the extent of maximizing the buckets. Will give it a read. Maxroll’s mechanic break-downs are usually pretty thorough and easy enough to follow even for more complex things (calculating True Damage) etc.

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i like your first one, the other one kinda boring and looks clunky and annoying af, trust me, we don’t need more of those restrictive/damage on tuesday type of deal. Also, for the first one you could add to the second line “while at maximun stacks of frenzy you become berserk”
Or imagine this “frenzy now uses your two handed weapon slots but you deal 20% less damage” like fury warrior from wow.
I never understood why frenzy and berserking never had any sinergies.
Or instead of the exploding damage “every 3 atacks frenzy triggers a free steel grasp” so you could combine the frenzy amulet with the two handed axe.
or this “frenzy has chains attached to your dual wielding weapons and increase the damage of frenzy by 5(x) for each extra rank of steel grasp you have; you can not longer use steel grasp” this would be the true kratos barb.

Honestly I don’t really have problems with Battle Trance (or at least, this version) as much as I have problems with how Frenzy works in D4.
-The stacks don’t last long enough (and I don’t think investing Tempers into that will ever be worthwhile either)
-They falloff all at the same time
-Range feels kinda short, even compared to other non-mobility Basic Attacks like Bash and Flay
-should probably increase MS by default

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Changing the cleave temper to all Basics seems obvious to me, especially if they won’t add splash damage/AOE to each one individually.

I just wish Paingorgers worked this way and the Basic Skills actually had Unique Weapon Tempers to fit their identity.

Yeah. Unimaginative and lazy design.

Paingorger wast he solution to basic cleave. After what happened in Season 2, blizzard had to dial back Basic skill spam. Moonrise and Hectic already got nerf. Anything with a conditional or maintenance cost is blizzard saying, “This is powerful. Pay a tax to use it.”

I really love Everytime I use Frenzy with HoTa, but I absolutely hate how fast it falls off. It’s really Annoying, the game is so fast paced, but there’s always more than 3 seconds between packs and that’s super stupid to deal with…

They give this dumb Utility temper for duration but just get rid of the temper and let Frenzy last for at least 15 or 20 seconds. I don’t understand it’s short duration, it makes it hard to utilize for core skills where I can spend more than 3 seconds spamming a very fast core skill

Got a Battle Trance almost immediately from the seasonal cache. Frenzy from the start, boys.

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Hope you get a Shard, Starless, and Lucion soon.

Waiting for a Third Blade to test out this Rupture build.

How are you guys dealing splash/AOE/killing stragglers with frenzy?

I just hit level 55 and WT4. I’ll get them all. I’ll try Lucion, but I think Shako is the right play.

Steel Grasp and Rupture for now.

GA Basic 185% Shard at level 80 from my 2nd T3 Horde.

Fury management is a bit wonky without the proper gear and rolls.