Items with multipliers to individual skills feel HORRIBLE

A lot of skills feel functionally garbage, just to have legendaries that make the skills usable.

This problem is somewhat notable in Sorc, getting 100% dmg multipliers for skills like Hydra, Frozen orb, Chain lighting, and Ice Shards, braking said skills when you factor other multipliers because they actually start with good numbers.

It is nearly non-existent in Rogue, because most of the modifiers just give utility things like stealth, or additive bonuses to grenades, or caltrops, or other nonsensical things. Even when it’s for some skills, like Flurry, it caps at 20%; or Twisted Blades where it caps at 40%.

However, Druid (and Barbarian) is an entirely new ball game, with ridiculous stackable multipliers.

For example, Druids’s wolves. They have one legendary that gives you 1 more companion. That means 25% dmg for Ravens, 50% dmg for wolves, and 100% dmg on Vine. On top of that, this legendary also rolls a whopping 150% multiplier to all companions, and if used on a two-handed weapon, it becomes 300%. Since these are multiplicative, that means Vine gets literally 600% extra dmg from a single item.

However, vine is not even the most broken companion… because wolves have an extra legendary that gives them another 100% multiplier. If put on an amulet, that makes it 150% multiplier. If you combine the weapon + amulet, you now have 675% dmg multiplier. But that’s not all of it… because, of course… there’s another legendary that gives them a keystone passive (which you should have in gloves because it doesn’t get larger for weapon or amulet) that multiplies an extra 20%. It all ends up on a tiny little bow of 810% dmg multiplier.

:exploding_head:
810%!!! WHY?!!!

WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!! !!! !!! !!!
:clown_face:

You don’t have to watch this, but here’s an example of companions build in action:

All this means is that companions are basically hot garbage unless you stack THREE key legendaries. This means that the skills are balanced to be very weak on baseline, to account for the super large scaling. Moreover, this leaves Druid (and Barbarian) feeling like utter garbage until you acquire the RIGHT gear, not just any gear.

The only one of those 3 powers that is acceptable is the one that gives them the key passive. The other two NEED to be scrapped immediately and their power should be allocated to the skill tree.

If you are unluck, and don’t get the “right” powers, here’s an example of most people’s experience of Druid gameplay:

That was one example, but other skills like Pulverize and Upheaval share the same exact problem.

Small 20% to 30% dmg multipliers are OK, and feel good. Instead of getting an overall power increase of 10%, you can opt for 30% to a single skill. Seems like an OK choice to make. But anything about 100% dmg multiplier is way too much, and that power should just be on the skill tree.

However, I would argue that legendaries should ONLY have additive dmg increases, even for the more balanced ones. Otherwise we’ll just be stacking multipliers into oblivion like it happened with D3… and we know how bad that has been to balance over 10 years.

Instead of Vines, getting 600% dmg from one item, they should do baseline 550% more dmg, and then instead have a legendary that adds +200 poison to their attack.

In fact, MOST of the legendary modifiers should be on the tree itself:

  • Pulverize having an earthquake
  • Earth spike attacking everything in a line
  • Double companions (heck Ravens have this on the tree, why double dip with an item?)
  • Double Hydra heads
  • Double Orb explosion
  • Piercing Ice Shards
  • Blood Mist triggering Explosions
  • Blood Mist having reduced CD (separate from explosions because that is broken)
  • Twisted Blades returning to you

For example, Hydra’s 2 choice nodes could be:

  1. You can now have 1 additional Hydra but they last 9 seconds (the 2x dps option if this is your main dps skill).
  2. Hydra now burns for an additional 30% of its base dmg and lasts 60 seconds (the mana sustain option if Hydra is only a support skill in your build).
  3. ***Legendary power could stay as "Hydra now gets the power of one unchosen modification. (similar to D3’s “X skill gains the effect of Y runes”) – assuming that type of legendary would exist for EVERY SINGLE skill and all classes.

TL;DR
All those crazy modifiers should be replaced with additive bonuses like "X skill deals +100-500 dmg." Those bonuses may sound "boring" but they are easier to balance (for developers) and they still feel exciting to drop (for the player) when you high roll for a skill you like using.

UFF!

That was long…

1 Like

İ dont understand why they bothered with a skill tree

They could have put the skills on the items as well and save dev time

They must balance power away from items into the skill tree

1 Like

honestly, true. Why should a player even put points in a skill if it’s not going to be functional without first having the corresponding gear?

I spent the most of beta trying to get the Frozen Orb Legendary, just so I could play that. I should have been able to play Frozen orb from the beginning, then feel slightly stronger if I got the Frozen Orb legendary.

I also came into the beta trying to play Shapeshifting druid… but I got EVERY SINGLE legendary for Earth skills. So, I had to respec to Earth and suddenly the Druid struggle ended. RNG completely dictated my path, I had no choice at all. I didn’t feel like I was building a character… I was just adapting the character to RNG whims.

This problem will be further exacerbated given respec costs… but that’s an entirely different issue, for a whole other thread.

2 Likes

So I can see multiple sides of this.

I, too, hated when D3 went down this path where skills either had big multipliers or they were flat out useless. At one point they just sorta stopped balancing skills altogether and just forced everything through itemization.

The downside to that is everything, including LON/LOD builds, becomes a set. Most builds, including the cube, had maybe a slot or two of choice, and certain slots just had de facto items you simply had to take. The game really went from having a build to playing a pre-set subclass.

The other argument is the one D4 is trying to make. The devs have said they don’t want to go down that “everything is a set” sort of path D3 had. So they seem aware if this pitfall. I think they are also aware that this open skill tree design has not only a skill point economy but also an item slot economy. If you want, for example, Necro minions to be strong, you’re going to have to pay in allocating slots to that endeavor. You can’t just have really strong minions because they’re so powerful through skill points but then use your item slots to make everything else good, too.

I think this is the reason why we see the skill trees as rather weak, all things considered. It seems the devs don’t want you getting too powerful for free, as it were.

1 Like

Could someone please explain why exactly are skill specific perks on legendaries instead of skill tree? There could be a good reason for this, I just can’t see it.
Also why are there multipliers?
Seems like the itemization is going to be: put as many skill specific affixes on your items to get strong.
If you can’t find this one legendary with 200% damage you’re always 1 tier lower and that’s it. Sounds exactly like sets in D3, doesn’t it?

1 Like

all that would make sense if it was even for all classes. But the reality is that Druids and Barbarians have 500%+ multipliers, Sorcs have 100%+ multipliers and Rogues / Necros have 30% multipliers.

Therefore, Rogues and Necros feel good to play regardless of gear. So, the player has real skill choices. Sorc feels OK, but is greatly empowered by gear, so the player has moderate choices and a large power curve. Barbarian and Druid feel awful to play without the right gear, and the player has absolutely no choice on what their build is going to be.

Given that it differs greatly from one class to the next, I think it’s because different developers worked on different classes.

It could also be a test run for the beta to see which model is preferred, and then continue development from there on. I’m really hoping is this one… and they just stick to Rogue legendary design.

Is Blizzard speedrunning D4 to the quintillion damage numbers?

We’ve already seen a 369k crit on a level 25 barbarian.

Soooo… what is that crit going to be at level 100 in min/max?

2 Likes