Items need a subversion/flavour

PC General Discussion
1

Probably writing this for like the 10th time lol but think is important (and probably A LOT of things will get a lot better fast after this is done), and think I’ll summarize it relatively shortly and to the point now

Super simple and easy by title (a bit harder to do in practice but still super important though)

Items need a subversion/flavor

A mace dropped ?, fine, what kind, is it a Bandit mace, a Warrior’s mace, or maybe even a Cursed one ?

A dagger dropped ?, fine, is it a standard/duelist knife, is it a cultist dagger, or is it a scout/wanderer one ?

An amulet dropped ?, fine, is it a fighter’s amulet (CC/reduction, fortify/barrier), a priest’s amulet (healing received, regen), a mage’s amulet (AllRes, RCR) or maybe even a cursed/necrotic one (Thorns, Overtime) ?

Got the point ?, no, it is NOT the problem that the loot is “too generic”, the problem is there aren’t subversions (and when I’m talking about subversion of items I’m talking about INHERENT roll)

People are asking for certain specific things can find them if there’s a chance for that stat to be an inherent roll… They actually wouldn’t gamble that much for every single item, only when they want to “double down” on something they like OR simply try to “fine tune” an item that has like 2-3 really good rolls on them

If all, like every single Amulet rolls “AllRes” inherently - what’s the point ?

Those are the kinds of things that people find lacking in D4… I mean let’s face it - even if inherent rolls were predetermined but still had subflavors would increase the loot quality by about 50% (if not more)

The problem isn’t that inherent rolls are “dedicated”, the problem is that they are SET IN STONE (literally), a Dagger cannot roll anything else but Close damage, a Mace cannot roll anything but Overpower, a Focus can’t roll anything else but CDR, a Staff cannot roll ANYTHING but damage vs CC-ed e.t.c.

Now, let’s give a few flavors to each of the ones we mentioned:

Amulet:

  • Movement speed (scout’s/thief’s/ranger’s)
  • vs-Close/Overpower damage (brawler’s/warrior’s/knight’s)
  • Crit%/LH% (beduin’s/adventurer’s/wanderer’s)
  • AllRes/RCR/Resource-Gen (accolyte’s/mage’s/sorcerer’s)

Staff:

  • Fortify/Barrier gen. (Brawler’s/Warrior’s/Knight’s)
  • Damage based on Resource (Accolyte’s/Mage’s/Sorcerer’s)
  • Defense/Ult/All CD spells reduced by X (Bishop’s/Inquisitor’s/Executioner’s)
  • Damage vs CC-ed (Nomad’s/Druidic/Elementalist’s)
  • LH% increased by X% (Baseline) (Scout’s/Adventurer’s/Wanderer’s)

Right ?,

Like, don’t have to do much changes (at least not too much) except remove the duplicates and the affixes that have low impact (LH chance % to Slow, Control-impairment/slow duration, Shrine buff duration)

BUT - we really DO need sub/flavours of items

THAT’s what will make the drops more exciting (the surprise of seeing an Executioner’s staff for the first time for ex., or a Wanderer’s staff with say 6% Baseline LH increase), those kinds of “you know, if you continue searching for items of type X you can eventually get inherent roll of X” is what makes the loot both teasing and also huntable

Pretty sure hit the nail this time :thinking:, but sure, discuss further if you like folks… :slight_smile:

1 Like
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No thanks, there’s plenty of bad affixes in this game, making more of them just compounds the problem.

3

I’m not talking about baseline affixes, I’m talking about inherent rolls

In fact if paid attention I DID say that some of the affixes in the pool need to be cut/reworked in this sentence here:

But - talked about inherent rolls (specifically) for the rest of the post

4

I know full well what you stated. And I’ll reiterate: bad idea is bad.

For proof - your idea already happens with boots, and it’s terrible. 1/3 of all boots are instantly trashed, and depending on preference, that can be upped to 2/3. Most players only desire the +evasion boots. On top of that, you can get boots with only +1 evasion instead of +3.

Again: bad idea is bad.

Carrying this over to other items just makes itemization worse.

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Both Pants and Boots already vary so that’s a constant

Also, you’re wrong, it’s good that there are versions… I mean what you want, a 4 charge evade boots all the time ?, no ofense

And as far as your example is concerned - it’s not even horizontal difference, it’s a vertical one: i.e. 3 charges > 2 charges > movement burst on evade > evade CDR on hit (for the most part, depending on the class the last 2 can be reversed)

And no, it’s not a bad idea, cause right now there are 4 problems with the game, ALL OF WHICH largely are a direct consequence of the constant inherents:

  • Overpower ?, No use in late game (well, other than Blood-lance which is apparently OP :P)
  • Lucky hit ? - Impossible to build-up before lvl70
  • Resource generation ? - not possible before lvl50, and can start making a build after 70
  • Thorns ?, relies entirely on one single item
  • Overtime ?, haven’t tried it but pretty sure it’s bad (except via Hearts but that’s more like a hack which makes things even further bad)

IF they make inherent rolls roll some of those things (or in some versions for them), we may find some uses for all mechanics not only during leveling but also may end up in a better spot late game…

Right now ? - the game is entirely Crit + Vulnerable or die trying (and it is getting even worse one might add) :thinking:

I must admit, I’m really SHOCKED that there are people that are against this… And that applies especially for current state of the game

6

Not all of these are low impact i am utilizing Control impairment in my stun barb…it feeds of that stat.

I get what you mean, i want that too, but atm the trade off for customization is not having those more unique drops.

That said the more i play the more i enjoy the crafting what i want and that is becoming exciting once the build i am making comes alive.

Side effect those that will not budge from minmax holy grail builds, lose out in this formula a little. :person_shrugging:

I hear you, but also sick of cut this cut that takes…there are builds and reasons fro every stat and i want to enjoy that.

Find ways that dont envolve cutting out content. It’s not the answer…its only is becasue bubble thinking those stats are sub optimal so there out…lol.

2 Likes
7

You had me until the inherent roll stuff.

I don’t think the problem is that we need 3 different kinds of mace. I think the problem is that we need a coherent fantasy for the affixes that show up. Why does this mace do extra damage to burning and chilled targets? Why does this other one do extra vuln and overpower?

I think they should do something like this:

First, craft a set of item fantasies that are defined by a “top” affix which is somewhat general and a two additional affixes that refine it or enhance it in some way. For example, crit damage + crit chance vs stunned + lightning crit damage, or fire damage + damage to burning targets + pyromancy skill damage, or damage over time + shadow damage over time + skill ranks in Blight.

Each item drop should get one of the fantasies, with a priority based on the item’s base type and the character’s class. They could also create a base priority for each fantasy, which would let stronger ones be rarer, and restrict a bunch of them to Sacred+ or Ancestral-only.

Then Sacred/Ancestral items could get a chance to roll an additional affix from the “top” of the fantasy lists (which would be the most generally-applicable one).

Then legendaries should have an inherent affix that synergizes with the legendary power (like +to a skill or damage type or defense, etc), but which doesn’t get imprinted when you extract the legendary power (so a dropped legendary has a chance to be better than an imprinted rare).

So each item would tell a bit of a story, there would still be some interesting variety and combinations, and legendaries would be exciting to find even when you are in later world tiers and have all the aspects.

8

I didn’t put the examples (I have them in another thread) but I mean… First start from somewhere ? :slight_smile:

No-one is saying that a Mace should chill or burn, but how about:

Mace (1H):

Standard: Overpower damage increased by [25-35]%

Alternatives:

    [15-25]% Damage while Healthy
    [20-30]% Chance to wound (apply injury earlier)
    [10-20]% Thorns

Mace (2H)

Standard: Overpower damage by [45-65]%

Alternatives:

    [30-40]% Damage while Healthy
    [30-50]% Damage vs CC-ed
    Overpower reduces CDs by [2-4] seconds

(Copy-pasted from the other thread)

Either way, the game has enough mechanics to make alternative inherent rolls work (with a bit of imagination), perhaps not for every slot but a good portion of them can

I mean, the affixes are mechanic-based for the most part (not element-based), so that’s kinda something that D4 does relatively well…

Here’s another example that I put on 2H Polearms/Axes for ex. but think Druid can’t use it ? (silly me :P), so would be better fitting to the 2H Mace instead

  • Overtime damage applies [1-2] seconds faster

(ofc. for Druid this would be Poison and for Barb would be Bleeding if wanna be specific about it), i.e. no need to change the affixes, but need to expand :slight_smile:

P.S. I be damned about the LH chance to slow, does Barb not have a slow baseline ?, thought it had :thinking: :slight_smile:

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my problem IS with the current stats.

D2R keeps it simple and clean, I can understand whats going on with a piece of gear instantly.

in D4 with close dmg, distant dmg, overpower dmg, I mean you have rolls specific for Ultimate damage, why can’t you just increase your base damage which then increases your ultimate damage why do you need a stat specific for ult damage and ultimates are still bad on top of it even with a specific stat just for that.

Like, come on.

Just copy D2 already. I hated D3’s stats and I still do, they somehow made it even WORSE than D3!

10

To be frank I think I like the conditionals actually… The problem is they have low numbers (10% damage vs close instead of IDK 40%, 25-30% damage vs CC-ed on a 2-hand instead of like 60-70%)

I mean I’ve mentioned before but think it would’ve been better for those inherents/conditionals to stand-out even more even at the cost of baseline damage nerfs if need be

It would feel really cool when you see that nice bigger number stand-out compared to your other attacks, and you know exactly where it came

I actually just thought of something - perhaps if they remove Crit the game will be fine (including vulnerable :D), I mean I know sounds kinda crazy but bear with this:

We never see the big IDK Dark-Brown/Dark-red numbers (say vs CC-ed and Thorns respectively), all we see is white and yellow all the time. Occasionally some tirquoise will occur (the Overpower) and that’s that, but other than that - Crit literally overshadows everything else