Implementing Combos

PC General Discussion
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I’ve seen it expressed a few times that an advanced form of combat gameplay is combos, or combinations of skills affecting subsequent actions, which can be thought of as a decision tree. This stuff is a bunch of discrete abilities and variations that are connected conditionally. So you’ll need two things that you don’t have right now - 1) a bigger set of abilities and variations 2) a way of presenting applicable changing options to players that can be executed. There is no support for this currently. There are conditional effects that can occur, like the combo modifier levels for rogues, but they fall under rudimentary synergies that have a limited effect on gameplay. There is room for expansion in conditional effects but it’s a weird neighborhood.

Fundamentally the game would need live button remappings. Now, I’m not 100% certain that I didn’t stumble into the gaming software engineering equivalent of sending a person of undisclosed gender to the moon but I better not have or everyone is more screwed than they know. Just let another species have a go at the Earth at that point. With live button remapping you can press a button and depending on which button/ability you pressed you get a particular selection of dependent options on the same group of buttons you normally use (including the one you just pressed), which is mechanically easier and console compatible. You press another button in that selection and the same thing happens, you get the point. Maybe you can press two buttons there, the theoretical options are many, including multiple decision tree types. Anyway. Who’s not stupid and following what I’m writing at this checkpoint? Probably not a D4 developer or designer, presently preoccupied with simplifying item affixes and doing some more math. Go get 'em, tiger, make Sanctuary great again. Give the people more gear and trinkets to make them happy.

In other posts I’ve given class-specific examples for a simpler non-dependence scheme as well as described (…verbally, which may not be the language of preference for wannabe Rain Men) how the various components of the resulting structure can be delivered as endgame loot to fill a progression and gameplay “plateau” that is actually underwater. I would like to take this chance to point out that all this stuff can be safely kept away from players who will prefer to continue playing Diablo IV while tongue-fishing the salty stream on their upper lip. Just give them a parallel set of difficulties that you don’t use correctly anyway deprived of and balanced without this stuff. Big boat energy. If it sounds like work, it is. You make billions of dollars so you can actually do more than discharge the brains of your players and make excuses for it to boot.

In those posts I did struggle to come up with an example for Sorceress (tmi, the player title for mine in S2 is ‘Agile Sinner’). Here’s an attempt at one under this combo scheme. I’m raiding mostly the arcane abilities here for expediency:

Similar to the schemes I’ve been posting so far you have to enter the combo tree through a normal ability. I.e. you press the button for a normal ability (with a longer cooldown) and enter the combo tree if it’s off cooldown. Four buttons are used during the remapping corresponding to normal ability keybinds, one reserved for exiting the tree (which you have to reenter and complete through the initiating button).

LEVEL 1

  • Magic Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces and damages enemies.
  • Wave of Force - Discharge a wave of damage to nearby enemies.
  • Mirror Image - Summon three invincible illusions of yourself that taunt nearby enemies for 3 seconds, when they expire. (They don’t do anything more, even move, aside from what is described.)

LEVEL 2
If Magic Missiles preceded.

  • Ice Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces, chills, and deals cold damage to enemies.
  • Fire Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces, burns, and deals fire damage to enemies.
  • Electric Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces, static charges (might be a new status effect I just made up), and deals lightning damage to enemies.

If Wave of Force preceded.

  • Wave of Frost - Discharge a wave of cold damage to nearby enemies and coat the ground in frost chilling enemies.
  • Wave of Fire - Discharge a wave of fire damage to nearby enemies and set the ground on fire burning enemies.
  • Wave of Electricity - Discharge a wave of lightning damage to nearby enemies and electrify the ground static charging enemies.

If Mirror Image preceded.

  • Image of Health - Inhabit a random Mirror Image becoming unstoppable, invincible, rooted, losing the ability to exit the combo tree as well as any sort of recovery and use of potions. Gain 50% of your health points up to maximum.
  • Image of Casting - Inhabit a random Mirror Image becoming unstoppable, invincible, rooted, losing the ability to exit the combo tree as well as any sort of recovery and use of potions. Gain 50% of your mana up to maximum.
  • Image of Toughness - Inhabit a random Mirror Image becoming unstoppable, invincible, rooted, losing the ability to exit the combo tree as well as any sort of recovery and use of potions. Gain 25% damage reduction up to maximum possible for 5 seconds after exiting the Image.

LEVEL 3
If Ice Missiles preceded.

  • Glacial Collapse - Deal a sheet of cold damage in a large, wide rectangle in front of you.
  • Ice Pick - Shoot a large shard of ice that impacts the first enemy it hits for heavy cold damage and its immediate surroundings for moderate cold damage.
  • Snap Freeze - Freeze chilled enemies in a large cone in front of you for 3 seconds.

If Fire Missiles preceded.

  • Carpet Bombing - Rain fire in a large, wide rectangle in front of you, burning enemies.
  • Bunker Buster - Shoot a large flame ball that impacts the first enemy it hits for heavy fire damage and its immediate surroundings for moderate fire damage.
  • Thermobaric - Immobilize burning enemies in a large cone in front of you for 3 seconds.

If Electric Missiles preceded.

  • Lightning Storm - Deal lightning damage in a large, wide rectangle in front of you.
  • Smite - Shoot a large bolt of lightning that impacts the first enemy it hits for heavy lightning damage and its immediate surroundings for moderate lightning damage.
  • Short Circuit - Stun statically charged enemies in a large cone in front of you for 3 seconds.

If Wave of Frost preceded.

  • Frostbite - The frost-covered area applies cold damage over time.
  • Ice Breaker - Your weapon collects the frost and deals 3000% (or something very high) cold damage on your next basic attack.
  • Deep Freeze - Enemies are frozen in the frost-covered area for 3 seconds.

If Wave of Fire preceded.

  • Turn Up The Heat - The burning area burns harder.
  • Meteoroid - Your weapon collects the fire on the ground and deals 3000% (or something very high) fire damage on your next basic attack.
  • Fiery Torment - Enemies are immobilized in the burning area for 3 seconds.

If Wave of Electricity preceded.

  • Electric Ground - The electrified area applies lightning damage over time.
  • Shock to the System - Your weapon collects the electricity and deals 3000% (or something very high) damage on your next basic attack.
  • Taser - Enemies are stunned in the electrified area for 3 seconds.

If Image of Whatever preceded.

  • Frosty Departure - The Images cast a spell to apply cold damage at a lower intensity and freeze enemies around themselves for 3 seconds and disappear.
  • Fiery Exit - The Images cast a spell to burn at a lower intensity and immobilize enemies around themselves for 3 seconds and disappear.
  • Group Shock Therapy - The Images cast a spell to apply lightning damage at a lower intensity and stun enemies around themselves for 3 seconds and disappear.

LEVEL 4
If Magic Missiles preceded.

  • One-Two Punch - Prime Wave of Force.
  • Spread the Punishment - Prime Mirror Image, the three Images are placed and taunt nearby enemies for 3 seconds when they expire.
  • Warp - Prime Warp. (this roughly corresponds to the slow time D3 ability)

If Wave of Force preceded.

  • One-Two Punch - Prime Magic Missiles.
  • Spread the Punishment - Prime Mirror Image, the three Images are placed and taunt nearby enemies for 3 seconds when they expire.
  • Warp - Prime Warp. (this roughly corresponds to the slow time D3 ability)

If Mirror Image preceded.

  • Vector of Aggression - Prime Magic Missiles.
  • Locus of Aggression - Prime Wave of Force.
  • Warp - Prime Warp. (this roughly corresponds to the slow time D3 ability)

LEVEL 5
If Primed Magic Missiles.

  • Refer to element type used in the already executed ability, provide corresponding level 3 Magic Missiles options altered only in the removal of conditions in the crowd control option.

If Primed Wave of Force.

  • Refer to element type used in the already executed ability, provide corresponding level 3 Wave of Force options altered by combining elemental damage and ground effect in the first option, altering Wave of Force as a location targeting ability and concentrating damage at the point (not sure if this ability in general shouldn’t be location targeted rather than around the player location) in the second option, and applying crowd control effect directly in the third option.

If Primed Mirror Image.

  • Refer to element type used in the already executed ability, provide corresponding level 3 Mirror Image options.

If Primed Warp.

  • Dangerous Territory - (straight from D3 with supplementation and duration reduction) Invoke a bubble of warped time and space at your target location up to 60 yards away for 4 seconds, reducing enemy attack speed by 20% and movement speed by 60%. This bubble also slows the speed of enemy projectiles by 90%. Apply the element of the already executed ability. Freeze for 2 seconds and cold damage for duration, immobilize for 2 seconds and burn for duration, stun for 2 seconds and lightning damage for duration.
  • Friendly Territory - (straight from D3) Invoke a bubble of warped time and space at your target location up to 60 yards away for 4 seconds, reducing enemy attack speed by 20% and movement speed by 60%. This bubble also slows the speed of enemy projectiles by 90%. The player’s health and mana recovery rate is increased by 500% (or something significant) within.
  • Adverse Territory - (straight from D3) Invoke a bubble of warped time and space at your target location up to 60 yards away for 4 seconds, reducing enemy attack speed by 20% and movement speed by 60%. This bubble also slows the speed of enemy projectiles by 90%. Enemies within are vulnerable and deal 10% less damage.

LEVEL 6 (these are combinations rather than permutations - order doesn’t matter)
If Magic Missiles and Wave of Force preceded.

  • Cast level 2 Wave of Force with corresponding element type with level 2 Magic Missiles with corresponding element type shooting in every direction outward from the Wave of Force edge. If I just made up the static charge status effect that’s a bit of an issue but whatever. Maybe have a second charge of this.

If Magic Missiles and Mirror Image preceded.

  • Plop the three Mirror Images taunting nearby enemies for 3 seconds, have the three level 2 Mirror Image options to select from, and shoot level 2 Magic Missiles of the corresponding element type from each Mirror Image at the point of your cursor or something (once).

If Wave of Force and Mirror Image preceded.

  • Plop the three Mirror Images taunting nearby enemies for 3 seconds, have the three level 2 Mirror Image options to select from, and each Mirror Image casts a level 2 Wave of Force of the corresponding element type.

If Magic Missiles and Warp preceded.

  • Cast the Warp you cast at level 5 with level 2 Magic Missiles of the corresponding element type shooting from its center in every direction once. There might need to be some tuning but I’ve spent long enough on this post.

If Wave of Force and Warp preceded.

  • Cast the Warp you cast at level 5 with level 2 Wave of Force of the corresponding element type inside.

If Mirror Image and Warp preceded.

  • Plop the three Mirror Images taunting nearby enemies for 3 seconds with smaller level 5 Warps around them. You can teleport to each Image mapped on a button once, in essence consuming it, until they expire.

Now that looks kind of fun, doesn’t it? Who offers this kind of thing? Certainly no one within this primitive genre that makes you chase math you neither need to nor care to understand while suffering idiotic gameplay throughout. And they have you conditioned like dogs to be satisfied with scraps while they make money hand over fist. One of the most amusing things I’ve read is that their designers and developers are blameless or the most unfortunate of us all. They only make the same damn games for decades for six-figure pay.

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It’s good I’m not a dev and have no power, so I don’t have to read this. :wink:
But you get a heart anyway for effort.

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Actually, if you were a dev you wouldn’t be reading this forum at all. :stuck_out_tongue: That’s what power gets you. I’ll take the heart like it’s still season 1.

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I wouldn’t even read this IF it was by a dev.

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Combos present numerous problems, namely piano key and exarcerbating the conditional issue present in Diablo 4 as it is now. It sounds like a good idea until you realize it isn’t really a choice but a requirement. You end up with a damage rotation you spam endlessly regardless of the situation. If you are in the middle of a rotation and need to react, it breaks the sequence.

Having combat be more reactive could be a good thing with mechanics like Counter-Attack or Weak Point mechanics similar to Lost Ark, however the danger there is you end up not utilizing a Skill and RESERVING IT. This is the same problem things like Ultimates face making those skills feel like you are playing with only a few abilities with others reserved for special occasions.

This is the problem with Shouts for example. 3 Skills or 50% of your Hot Bar taken up with Skills that should almost just be Passive Toggles of some sort and do not feel fun to use.

There are methods to fix these issues and add more decision making to combat for it to feel more dynamic and enjoyable but Combos are NOT one of them.

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No piano keys, covered in the second paragraph. You use just the buttons you have currently. You should also be given a choice in not having the items that will constitute these trees drop in the endgame (or even just ignoring them), also mentioned in the post. If you were to actually look at the options you’ll see that you don’t end up with a damage rotation you spam endlessly regardless of the situation. The element type is the one aspect you’re likely to always stick with the same option for, and even that may vary. And of course things can be improved; there is a lot of room for creativity, granted you actually have the mind for it. Also, not only are you given offensive and defensive options but at every level one of the keys takes you back to your normal abilities on the four buttons (except for the one under which the tree is, which can be altered).

I don’t know what you refer to in Lost Ark but one thing I’ve noticed in gaming communities is that not only do you people not read but your capacity for new ideas tends to max out at copying other games. Not a great quality. I am curious what you’re referring to if you wish to explain, maybe I integrate the concept in other instances. There is no danger in not utilizing an ability here as you’re basically forced to in order to progress. Yes, you can defer uses but it wouldn’t make sense to just fall asleep on something as I think there is a decent pace. In the other examples I’ve done I arbitrarily set a 30-second cooldown for an ability tree five levels deep. Action is the intention.

Ironically I suggested some time ago that one little step to take is put something like shouts as passive triggers so as to free up more space for more exciting abilities. What I describe here far supersedes shouts and that suggestion. I am quite possibly describing the future of gaming to you people, as cringe as that sounds. That’s the level of stupidity you’re dealing with in the gaming industry from top to bottom. I can sit on my butt for a couple of days and poop out stuff that’s more innovative than what hundreds of Blizzard employees showered with money and resources conceive in years, not to mention presumably trained and educated and caught up with the industry literature and whatnot. Case in point, Diablo IV.

I’m only trying to help. :wink:

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I don’t think blizzard cares unless it affects their insanely high free to play monetization strategy with their fully priced box price.

Aside from Diablo 4 being led by a pathetically greed infested scum corporation, all this combo talk only helps solidify the colored branches of skills and removing more independence from build diversity. Meaning instead of expanding our ability to theory craft, combos would only lock us in tighter to play blizzards way instead of ours. The game is complete trash though, support them by buying a 75$ skin for a pony no one will ever see lolol.

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One, spending on the game correlates with engagement, perhaps most of all when it comes to cosmetic content that changes only the appearance of your character. You are less likely to bother with cosmetics if you play the game not because you’re excited for it but because you have nothing to do or are killing time rather than yourself (belated trigger warning). Two, what are these branches of color you write of? All these abilities and variations are additions to the game, literally. You can “theory craft” to your little heart’s content. What removal of independence from build diversity are you referring to? When you play the game do you hallucinate your character doing different things than what Blizzard provides you the abilities for?

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Why in the world would you support a company you feel this way about? Seems odd to me.

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This is a well thought out idea, very descriptive and detailed, there’s just one problem. It’ll never happen in D4. Now don’t get me wrong it’s an interesting idea and it would work just fine, but in another game aside from Diablo. This would take a massive overhaul of how the mechanics of skills work entirely, and if blizzard is known for anything it’s being stubborn on changing working systems.

I don’t see much changing in the way of how skills currently work except through aspects. Oh we might get a couple more with the expansion, but in general the basics will stay the same. It’s a simple system that isn’t too in depth for casual players to get lost in, and that’s the core audience Blizzard is looking at. The more complex, the less intuitive, which means you’re losing the interests of the majority of the player base. PoE is a prime example of this.

Regardless maybe a game will come out with your system you can try out, I just don’t see it ever happening in D4.

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What world are you living in that these words express positivity and support? Seems odd to me.

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You obviously support them by buying their games. Who gives money to a company they feel this way about?

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I don’t think you even understand what you’re saying. You’re enraged because you’d feel it’s too expensive to buy an optional cosmetic that has no impact on the gameplay. I’d love to hear your thoughts on Path of Exile MTX model. Lol

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We were all in the dark on the full scope of this release, unless you signed an NDA… Who trolls people who purchased a game that was unknowingly incomplete, seems odd?

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I’m so enraged because I am spreading truth? Seems odd you are here to troll. Path of Exile is a free to play game, MTX expected, next. Cool attempt at trolling though!

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No, no you don’t get it. You’re mad over something that you can ignore and has no impact on you. You’re policing what other people do. You’re a joke, a troll of the highest order.

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I’m so angry rawrrrr!!! Don’t be upset you don’t agree with facts, not my problem troll.

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What facts? You have only spouted a bad opinion.

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19

That’s what a losing debater would say.

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I have never lost a debate. Not once. You however haven’t even started to debate you whiner cry baby. Harass someone else. At least then you might have a chance.

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