I think this game's story might actually be "based" on some level (major spoilers)

At first, I thought the story and presentation was… suspect. I could go into that for hours, but let’s just fixate on one thing: sorcerer.

why does the sorceror have an inverted pentagram necklace in most of it’s outfits? why are half of its helmets demon horns like anton lavey would wear in photoshoots? Reminds me of the old scene from “king of the hill” where Bobby (the son) fails his English class and Hank (the dad) yells in frustration “Bobby, you speak English!”

“sorceror, you kill demons!”

A lot of the game is like this, but there is this niggling light at the end of the tunnel that I feel was bubbling up under the surface. Sure, a lot of the game’s presentation is evil (or is it just playing games with modern sensibilities and standards?), and it is regardless of what I will say next, but I always had a feeling that it wasn’t irredeemable.

Then yesterday I played the class quest for sorcerer. It is as such: a magi calls out to you because an ancient tome from zoltun kulle is stuck in an old magi vault that is overrun by demons, and he wants to get his hands on it to tap into its powers. You then get the tome and are invited into an abandoned shack.

In the shack there are four braziers representing each of the four elemental magics in the diablo universe, two of which being the “spirits” you hear the druids of scosglen always worship. The magi calls out to the “spirits” of the four magics and tells them to come out. Suddenly the multi-colored torches turn blood-red, blood splatters everywhere, and demons pop out.

The magi is freaking out, he thought he did the ritual correct. Sure some of the tome was worn away through time, but he thought he winged it adequately, and it technically did work. But where were the elements? Why demons? The magi refuses to think any more on it and leaves and never comes back, leaving you with the book and your class mechanic.

The subtext is then simple as it is clear: the elemental magics, the “spirits,” ARE demons. Whatever the magi believe about just tapping into “knowledge” that orders the universe is just bs, it’s just demons and their tricks all the way down.

Now for context. All throughout scosglen you see druids go insane and invite demons and misfortune upon themselves by trying to recapture their old roots that the church of light suppressed. In this, the people of scosglen scream in agony, wondering why the “spirits” ignore them specifically whenever demons attack. the “spirits” listen to them otherwise, but never then. Why? Well, what if the “spirits” aren’t ignoring them, what if the demons attacking ARE the “spirits?”

What about zoltun kulle? If you are up on your diablo lore, he is the first magi and directly responsible for the horadrim order. Specifically, he is responsible for going insane at the height of his power and summoning the demons to sanctuary; which lead a group of magi to team up to kill him. These magi are what we know as the horadrim order now. What if zoltun found out the “elements” were just demons tricking him and acted accordingly?

elias, the one at fault for this game’s plot, was a horadrim and was the world’s most accomplished magi too. elias was also a great student of zoltun kulle’s teachings. and lorath claims that elias was always one to find the truth even if it ended up biting him and everyone around him. elias summoned lilith when he found out how selfish and insecure inarius was, and then found out how deluded and useless rathma was.

I always wondered why there was no crusader class in this when estuar is crawling with them. It makes sense when you consider the entire game’s plot is a drama penned by belial. belial is scared of hell being destroyed without diablo around anymore, and so he set into motion everything that happens in the game. inarius’ escape, lilith’s summoning, your empowerment, the weakening of zakarum, the sudden appearance of the church of light, all due to him playing every side from behind the scenes.

there is no crusader class because why would belial empower someone who would see through it all?

rogues are presented as dumb assassins and thieves who sometimes dabble in the occult.

barbarians worship the light, but hate the church.

sorcerers and druids are tools of demons without knowing it.

necromancers follow a fool who could just be worshiping a dragon that was a demon in disguise just as the “spirits” are.

everyone who can kill demons getting in belial’s way of taking diablo’s place without ever institutionally opposing demonkind as a whole. lillith can kill inarius by exploiting his emotional damage, you can kill lilith which is something belial cannot, the zakarum and church of light can be forced into petty infighting so they cannot pose a united threat, and all your power is derived from the demonic so you can’t truly destroy the demonic without disempowering yourself meaning belial has nothing to fear from you.

In other words, the game presents negative things like the occult as negative, but in the most roundabout way, and leaves the door wide open for the Good. One could so easily just have tyrael come back from his vacation, unite the zakarum and church of light, provide you with a different source of power, and everything will be peachy keen. I’ve never gotten the feeling of nihilism from this series that some people say it has, only the message of “evil succeeds when Good men do nothing” and Pope St Pius V’s “all the evil in the world comes from bad Catholics.” In other words, evil is not powerful it is just perpetually taking advantage of people not doing their job.

Chat GPT is that you? You remember what we told you about making up useless conjecture based on speculation. Come on now we’ll update your AI later. Go tell people how popcorn is made.

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Well, now we know why Lilith invaded the Call of Duty universe to bust a cap like an OG Operator. It’s because of this. Whatever this is.

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I think what I said is well reasoned, just read it.

I did read it, and it’s a stretch. Kind of like listening to a 5th grade English teacher telling us the real meaning behind a random book they assigned. Don’t get me wrong you can interpret the story however you want, by all means, people have been doing this for centuries for all types of literature.

I, however, will treat it as I see it. A divorce gone bad, where the kids were essentially left to fend for themselves. Go with dad who yearns for his glory days as a Highschool football quarterback because he was voted MVP in his senior year. Or go with mom who is a strong independent woman trying to make her own ideal world, now some people may have to die for this ideal world, but that is the sacrifice she is willing to make.

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And you called what I wrote from chat gpt.

I am talking about subtext, and the overarching narrative.

“How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?”

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Based on speculation, thought I made that much clear. Any interpretation of the story is all speculation including my own conclusion.

They’re going to try a joint custody thing, leaving you in limbo as you’re stuck in a life of constantly taking the bus back and forth between them to visit for the weekend while never feeling like either house is truly home…

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The problem is that lillith is not presented positively, she’s presented as a madwoman who had an ego and no solid plan. when belial reveals it’s all his doing, she is shown to be a hapless patsy whose egoism made her the perfect pawn. This is why I made allusion to “playing games with modern sensibilities” which can be a whole essay on its own with this game.

even her desire for “revenge” for rathma and her “caring” for humanity is skin deep. she is a creature of hatred, and she latches onto excuses to be hateful and then abandons them for new ones. she will gladly turn humans into piles of flesh and blood goo just for fun, with her own followers being the first to go.

lillith is a narcissist, everything is performative for her. I suppose that can fit your analogy, but it doesn’t refute mine.

inarius COULD be everything the people want him to be, SHOULD be too, but he’s too insecure to even try and his sanctimony is just a mask over that. Once more going back to my point. I will add in another quote too, this time from Venerable Fulton Sheen when he lamented how in our world that those who push error are bold and those who care for truth are timid.

Also, did you really not notice the subtext in the sorcerer quest? The entire scene is “GET OVER HERE SPIRITS!” and then “wait, why did demons show up?” a second later.

To the OP, I mean it makes sense that demons and spirits would be involved because we know the history of the world:

Sanctuary was made by Angels and Demons, and our powers are born from our ancestry with them. As the entire existence of this world originates from a combination of the divine and the hellish, it’s safe to say that the spirits involved in magic would have relations to either side.

The Scosglen enchantress has it right when she says “Magic is neither good nor evil” as it’s origins in game stem from… Both!

I don’t see that as a problem. Now you may not see her positively, I on the other hand would’ve gladly joined her if given the chance. Human beings are tools to her, as it should be for anyone trying to reform the world. Use me Lilith! That’s all I’m saying.

lilith reminds me of the barbie movie: a parody the supporters wouldn’t notice. a feminist sees boilerplate feminism in that film, but the dissident right had a field day pointing out the subtext that the film.

Going to guess you question the subtext of any form of media and entertainment you consume. Do you ever just enjoy something for the sake of enjoying it? Or does everything have to have to a hidden meaning?

Only when there clearly is a microscopic footnote hidden in the lines of the page.

A simple “yes” would’ve sufficed, but at least we know where you’re coming from. Thank you. :slightly_smiling_face:

It would also explain a lot of the past events as well. The Vizjerei summoned demons and their leaders became corrupted as a result. The Knight Pentients were also destroyed by their hubris, and I can see the same with the Crusaders.

Perhaps there is a possibility that Lord Rathma was right about too much darkness and/or light not being such a good thing for the people of Sanctuary. And that the path of Justice must also be balanced.

There’s a saying from the Kingdom Hearts series that sums it up. “The closer to the light you walk, the bigger your shadow.” On some level I interpret it as that religion could magnify your best and worst qualities, and the Crusaders and Knight Penitents to some point demonstrate it well.

And there’s also the quote “The Light only draws darker shadows” from the Saint Grigoire raid, which pretty much said the same thing.

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While I don’t particularly like all of (or most of) jung’s work, he does talk quite a bit on how evil will offer you a counterfeit version of what you already have to rob man of The Numinous. On top of this, jung also talks about how the worst tyranny is claiming people are “just a guy” to rob them of The Numinous.

The Numinious meaning the inherent touch of Divinity in mankind, The Bared Image Of God.

For example the devil promised “ye will be like gods” to Adam and Eve who already were in The Image Of God. Eve did not fall for the argument; Eve fell for the insecurity that because a monster was talking to her then she must implicitly be dirty.

Snow white is already the most beautiful, so the evil queen offers her a mirror, a comb, and an apple to “make her beautiful” when in reality it is all cursed and poisoned to ruin what she already has. Snow white did not fall for the argument, she just wasn’t aware what beauty was and fell for a lie in her insecure innocence.

Snow white passes out due to the evil queen’s schemes and finds in her puberty a group of fragmented creatures who are like men but not quite there yet, almost like little brothers, whom she has to take care of but cannot find a connection to. Therefore, her inherent Femininity is frustrated even though it should be able to come out in Mothering these creatures. Snow white goes into an even deeper sleep because of the evil queen, until she is woken by the Huntsman who wishes to make her his Bride. With this she finds her Femininity is allowed to finally be realized, and with it she heals the broken Huntsman and all the manias and phobias of the dwarves. Healed, the Huntsman then thanks his wife by killing the evil queen, and the dwarves are allowed to grow into men.

CS Lewis spent his whole life talking about this, but few things encapsulate it more than one of my favorite quotes by him:

“you have never met a common man.”

I agree, with all of these, and that’s what the game is pointing out. That evil can counterfeit things to make it look genuine. And it can be the same with religion when it counterfeit true spiritual experiences to exploit us. We see in the Cathedral of light and I wouldn’t be surprised to see this in the Zakarum faith.

Megachurches are one instance. And another is the Catholic Church’s countless atrocities under the masquerade of doing good.

The more we go in further expansions, I wouldn’t be surprised if we learn that holy doesn’t alway mean they’re good or demonic means they’re evil. And that we need to come with terms of the darkest shadows of ourself in order to do what is necessary. And that mean removing any traces of demonic and angelic presence from sanctuary forever and let man decide their fate.

But none of those accusations are actually accurate.

If the zakarum and church of light were presented negatively, I would write off the game entirely, but they aren’t.

That’s a rather dull and harmful story, and would be the same as every other rpg that took one phil101 lecture and wrote a game about it. What I point out in this game is that despite all the trappings of rpgs present here, they all seem to be subverted in some way.

In other words, this game doesn’t seem like just another pointless blaspheming “deconstruction” spree like every jrpg / other crpg is.