They have layers for that? It’s a solved issue in MMOs.
The only thing I want is a good game and discussion on how to get there.
I would argue that people thirsting over being as strong as their favorite streamer in the same time frame is hurting the genre more. I don’t recall people being fed daily streams telling them how far they are from the top echelon of power in D2 and D3. People seemed happier when they weren’t constantly exposed to the top 1% of players and their highlights.
We used to enjoy the journey, but now it’s tainted by the constant reminder of how playing to have fun is not super optimal.
That’s pretty true as well, there has been a cultural shift.
They don’t do it, EVER. Every time wow tries it it creates a huge bottleneck and has to be patched.
ok bro, invent a time machine. Because it aint coming back.
You’re saying this as if D4 leveling journey was magic.
A wide empty world with ultra repetitive activities around players we don’t need to interact with.
Had it been as captivating as classic WoW’s leveling, I wouldn’t need an endgame. But it’s not.
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Hmm? I’ve been playing HC WoW and haven’t had any issues with the layers.
I’m just trying to get there. People seem to be fixated on the solution being “more end game systems”, while I think the leveling is more important to fix.
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We enjoyed the journey in D2 because it was fun and when you got amazing rare items they were actually good most of the time, in D4 none of the uniques or Uber uniques get me excited. I wanted a grandfather most then they nerfd crit so now a 925 random roll item will be better lol
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HC wow has had a decade of iteration and patches built into it. I have 300 days played on a single character before BC even came out. I remember how it used to be. lol. Nothing like it now.
I just started on project quarm, a new EverQuest progression server and loving it. I also started wow at the beginning and it was never as good as EverQuest imo so it might just be the first mmo you play hooks ya
I helped wake the sleeper … on eq. I lived in TOV
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a lack of endgame might be excusable if the journey there was great but the campaign was mid and the rest is pretty bad.
i agree that’s part of the appeal of arpgs, you start out struggling to bash a lone wolf to death and by the end you’re plowing through waves of demons and going toe to toe with the devil. but once you’ve beaten the devil, the only goal is to get stronger for the sake of getting stronger and that’s where end game should come in to play. greater rifts in D3 did get boring but they were a decent way to test your mettle, they gave the player a tangible measure of growth that also let you compare yourself to other players, it’s not a great end-game system but it was something.
in D4 once you get your core build and everything starts dying in 1 hit you lose all sense of progression because there’s no yard stick, no goal to work towards, no other players to compete against, no reason to min-max your character because min was more than enough to do the job.
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Wash, rinse then repeat … 
my friend has been trying to get me in to everquest. I’ve tried a couple times now and I just hate it. it’s so awful lol.
I think the UI is probably the worst in any game i’ve ever played. i dont get how people could prefer that mess over WoW, but hey to each their own.
Built my own ui for EverQuest, so many custom ones for it but yea the original kinda sucks, I just love how hard and unforgiven eq is, when you accomplish raids and get loot there it really feels like you accomplished something
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He keeps trying to cheese the game too. Hes like hey just stay here and ill buff you with my druid and you can power level AND GET TO END GAME REAL QUICK.
Like bro i just want to play the game. What is the point of getting end game. I want THE game.
Yea that’s less fun imo, I love it when your grouping and moving around zones to find that certain piece of gear
“No lifers” just get there faster than the rest of us. Eventually we all get to the point where there is nothing to do.
It isn’t absurd at all to develop a system whereby people who hit max level with a complete build (irrespective of how long it takes them to do that) can still find things to do other than rolling alts and starting over or playing a different game
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I don’t know if there’s a way to make the journey interesting without removing wikis, influencers, and data-mining.
D2 had clear road-blocks that made progression interesting, because the player had to look at their build or ask for help. There wasn’t multiple “LOOK AT THIS SICK INSTA-OP BUILD, MINIMUM FARM, OP!!!” videos available and online FAQs were mostly guessing and uploading what worked for them.
Every facet of a game is revealed before it’s even released these days and the most efficient farming methods+best builds are already solved.
You can’t have a journey without the thrill of the unknown.
/boomerrant
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I do think there should be stuff to do with a completed character.
In my opinion they should be challenges that basically gauge how successful you were in building your character.
I think D4 does a pretty good job in this regard with the end game bosses, but from what I can tell most people with “end game gear” are just one shotting them which sort of defeats the purpose once again.
It has become something else and slowly turning into an MMO with expansive story, world building, and theme-park gameplay (i.e. go to different events to earn specific rewards).
It’s originally just dungeon delving, both in the original Diablo or what the genre takes inspiration from (i.e. roguelike games).