How to fix Rogue Squishiness (good read worth promoting imo)

Hello I’m a lvl 99 rogue have talked to several level 100 rogues tb and pen and have concluded this is the absolute best way to fix the class and make it fun/interesting or at least viable relative to the perma fortified/unstoppable tornado hucking werewolves.

Rogue right now at level 100 pushing high nightmare dungeons has one central problem that causes it to be rather underpowered than other classes especially in melee builds. There are a few hardcore streamers who would say otherwise and that the class is “balanced” though I have yet to see any of them push 75+ rifts or play a melee rogue without dying/concluding the class is not supposed to be melee and that all of it’s melee abilities are somehow balanced although in nm dungeon tier push theyre the most vastly underperforming spec other than summon necro or ww barb.

As of now pen shot rogue is not overpowered and with decent skill can breeze through 85+ tier dungeons. It has a wide range of utility and the “umbrous” legendary aspect enables them to stack an abundance of utility on their action bar. Where as with melee rogue either utilizing flurry or twisting blades with death trap or poison trap or poison imbue immensely struggles with anything past 75+ let alone 70.

I have found two potential fixes to the Rogue to balance the class out. One is simple though much worse the other is a little complex though far greater.

Solution 1: Make the umbrous aspect proc on cutthroat critical hits as opposed to marksman critical hits.

This would balance out rogue in that builds that are already safe at ranged distance will actually have to choose between poison trap or dark shroud as a defensive instead of being enabled to have both unecessaritly consistent uptime on dark shroud while being able to slot 2 other defensive utilites.

It would also give melee rogue an actual chance at actually engaging in melee range in higher tier nm dungeons without the immense/rapid collapsing damage that comes with the quick removal of each dark shroud orb.

However this fix does not fix the underlying issue with the class which is that while not having access to fortify, Rogue mainstat passive defence “dodge chance” just plain sucks as a stat in diablo 4.

Solution 2: Bring a “glancing blow” (poe unrelated) mechanic to dodge chance that works similiarly to how “lucky hit chance” within diablo 4 already performs yet in a defensive way rather than offensive.

Dodge right now gives (with even a large amount of dexterity) a very low chance to negate all damage taken to “dodge” the damage. Buffing dexterity’s scaling with this defensive ability too much will make the class broken or simply a complete diceroll on weather or not you get 1 shot. As it stands, it is just an oversimple poor mechanic.

Instead of something so overly simplistic dodge can be a 2 part system.

It firstly has X% higher chance to cause the attack to be a “glancing blow” which causes the attack to deal X% reduced damage (which could also scale with dex) (leave this to blizzard to figure out the proper numbering/scaling).

Then within a “glancing blow” proc, there is then Y% chance for the Rogue to completely dodge the attack and take no damage at all–working exactly the same as lucky hit performs which also makes sense with the Rogues lore/persona.

This will actually encourage a Rogue-like play style as there is still with the right numerical balancing a high chance to be hit and take full damage from an attack yeat this chance can be negated with dexterous gameplay, instead of how dodge is in its current state which is rather a useless mechanic that surves no other purpose than throwing on our boots sometimes if there is nothing else to put there.

Also other Rogue active skills could also synergize with this dodge mechanic. Instead of dark shroud giving a flat % damage reduction per active orb it could instead give the rogue a 100% or X% higher chance to recieve a “glancing blow” upon taking damage which then would consume an orb per each time damage is taken.

Honestly it would probably take a lot of work to implement such a change to the dodge mechanic in the game though I believe it would actually make the rogue viable without the class being either completely overpowered or forced into ranged play at higher difficulties in the game and would actually make the dodge chance stat in general worth slotting on gear instead of being a completely worthless stat that nobod wants at all.

Let me know your thoughts on this and please comment if you like the idea.

3 Likes

Pretty good read.

I personally (mid 60s) had been running Smoke Grenade up until recently, and incoming damage from either fully DR’d mobs or the super duper definitely fun affix that grants unstoppable for some godforsaken reason to mobs just became so high I couldn’t reasonably justify running it anymore.

I prefer to play melee in almost any game I play that presents the option, but rogue just takes an astronomical amount of punishment for even a second of being out of control of your character (shoutout to spiders in particular, rot in hell), even at this level in 20s+, so I can’t even fathom doing something like a 30, or 40 and being able to take more than two hits without shroud before you’re slammed into the pavement as a funny, knife wielding grease stain. And I normally rolled barb in Diablo games, but I’m beyond tired of the whole “screaming is your motif” along with d4’s launch barb essentially being a Regigigas wearing cement shoes (extremely slow start).
Glancing blows as a secondary defensive option that’s essentially scaling higher alongside dodge chance definitely is something worth looking at too.

They really need to do something. Nobody is pushing high nightmare as Rogues in HC. Buff Rogue defenses

I made a post about this topic earlier today. It’s insane to me that ranged has so much more survivability than melee just because Umbrous procs only on Marskman and not on Marksman/Cutthroat/All Core Skills critical hits

Again, this has been posted by OP before and argued. Making umbrous open to both melee and ranged is fine and a good recommendation, making it switch to exclusive for melee is stupid.

1 Like

you guys should check out smoke’s t100 clear / build. He did it with twisting blades.

1 Like

yea a general buff to umbrous but 0 change to functionality was vexing af but then again our most poppular rogue twitch streamer(s) keep preaching that “RoGuE iS bAlAnCeD” when they dont even have a level 100 yet to know if it’s actualy balanced because they keep dying on hardcore smh. 90% all are running marksman builds now btw lmaooooo. so i think it will take blizzard a minute to figure this out. im pretty sure one of the devs plays rogue. we may have to wait for him to get to lvl 100 and try to push high tier dungeons on tb for some very obvious realizations to be made
edit:

im willing to put money down without even seeing the video that the dungeon was handpicked with 0 ranged all melee enemies except maybe for those fat slugs that do nothing anyways and 0 monster density. also willing to bet it was canals or the other dungeon i cant think of off the top of my head. very handpicked 0 ranged all melee dungeons with supressor elite affix roll so that the elites do nothing sure tb can do tier 100. everything else prob max out at 70-75.

it would be nice to have some videos to show both sides. Because there will always going to be people who just don’t know how to min max, and some who knows.

Interesting thanks for sharing. Doesn’t seem worth it to try it on HC still. He had to optimize specifically for each dungeon at the highest tiers and probably ended up just spamming the same dungeon over and over.

They should just buff DR instead for rogue. I’d even take a slight damage nerf tbh in exchange.

rogue is not the only class that rerolls dungeons until they have better mods. Everyone is doing that in high tiers.

I didnt say for better mods. I said he ran the same cheese dungeon over and over again. Ofc he rolled for mods thats obvious

I was replying to the other guy, not you, but I don’t really understand the sentiment of the thread, given that:

  • There’s no reason to do high tier nightmare dungeons, other than for the challenge. Maybe if there was a significantly increased chance to find the ‘ultra rare uniques’, then tier 90+ dungeon farming strategies would matter.
  • If people are doing it solely it for the challenge, what’s wrong with them optimizing their build ( and dungeon), so they can get the achievement.

Do you guys actually want to waste your time farming t100 over and over again when there’s no reward?

The ‘‘reward’’ will be being in a leaderboard position whenever they implement it in the game.

On a leaderboard / race, the guy who ‘hand picked’ his dungeon with the right mods, and made an optimized build for that dungeon would win.

Yes, optimizing leads to the best result. That is pretty much common sense.

1 Like

What was your point then, you are already in agreement with me. The other people in this thread are against optimizing for t100.

My point was that some people like to do the literal hardest possible content because that’s what fun to them. Completing it is the reward. Sometimes even a leaderboard position. Leaderboard positions require you to try it/complete it multiple times.

Just because you don’t necessarily get better loot at tier 100s doesn’t mean it’s pointless to keep doing them.

Having a leaderboard just makes your argument worse. People will optimize the hell out of the dungeon selection / their character to get to the top of the leaderboard rather than playing a variety of content (what nKs and NubLife want to do). If there’s no loot, and you aren’t competing for a leaderboard and dont want or already have the achievement, t100 is just a waste of time as the game currently is.

Well of course there is no point in doing a t100 if you don’t want to compete.
Being the hardest content is what makes it competitive.
When did I mention that I don’t like optimizing?

My whole point was that just because you think 100s are pointless because they don’t give you better loot, they won’t be pointless for the entire playerbase. Most people won’t even get to complete a t100. Some people may do one once. Some people may do hundreds to get rank 1 in the ladder.

My original reply (that you quoted) was specifically to these comments above (who obviously don’t want to optimize / compete for t100), and then you said the reward should be a leaderboard which just helps my argument. I’ll try and use quotes next time, but we are not all talking about the same goals here.

Anyways I’m done with this thread until high tier nightmare dungeon loot is buffed. I don’t mind doing a t100 once, though, for the achievement.