Fun vs. Efficient

There’s a quote, I can’t find from who, that states “If you give players a fun way to do something, and an efficient way to do something, they’ll choose the efficient way.”

By no means is this a full list (or free from my own bias, if I’m being honest) but some of the most common complaints and concepts I see that tie into this thought (and that I wish to discuss at the moment) are:

  1. Why am I farming for better and better gear if there’s not really anything to do with it?
  2. Bosses should be fun and not one-shot loot pinatas.
  3. RNG is important in every factor in an ARPG.

Some thoughts I have on these:

1:
A lot of the real idea of what we consider the loot chase stems from Diablo 2, which had no actual endgame as we would consider it today. (“Post-game” or “post-campaign” is really a more apt descriptor.)

Essentially, players ran the same content over and over again looking for drops to use or trade for other items, but there was ultimately little point in it; if you could beat the game, you could do nearly everything in it already (ubers were a later addition, I believe) so all you were really doing was maybe putting together a fun build or one that could do the same thing, only faster.

Fast forward to today, and most looter ARPGs I am familiar with are literally set up so that you play the same content over and over again post-game, with various difficulty levels. There is no real goal other than to push yourself as far as you want to.

D4 had pinnacle content in the form of Echo of Lilith; but it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because it was a skill check, not a gear check, something incongruous with the way the rest of the game played, and something that did not really reward progression at all.

Let’s pretend D4 has pinnacle content designed for the most perfectly geared characters, and let’s also pretend there are a number of balanced, highly performing builds.

Not everyone is going to be able to take part in it either due to choosing a build that can’t do it or just not being able to find good enough gear; and on one hand, that’s fine, not everything in a game has to be for everyone.

On the other, though, when you introduce something like this, it becomes the game’s de facto goal, and in a game like this that technically supports the long-term player but is designed around seasonal burst-play, it’s a bad feeling if you can’t complete that goal.

There’s also the fact that the pinnacle content either has no material rewards, or it does, but they’re pointless since you’ve already completed the hardest content in the game. I don’t think there is an easy answer to this one.

2:
I would like content to be fun. I don’t disagree with that. I think the current boss design is mostly not fun, but that’s a different argument.

I think the problem here is that some are looking at post-game bosses as something you fight specifically to fight them; when the reality is, they’re a means to an end.

Campaign bosses are supposed to be extravagant set piece performances to enthrall and challenge the player. Those should be lengthy and fun. Post-game bosses are just a way to get gear; and while there’s something to be said for having them be interesting and challenging, for me personally, I found fighting them as intended fun exactly once. After that I just want to get drops.

If necessary items are easiest to get from bosses but I’m still going to fight a boss twenty, thirty, a hundred times to get that item in a usable state, I’m simply not going to engage in a lengthy version of those fights. Efficiency wins every time.

The real problem, if there is one, is the way bosses and their loot are arranged, not the fights themselves being too easy. Of course they should be easy! What is all my progression for if not to make the fights easier and easier?

3:
Not everything in a looter ARPG has to work off of pure RNG, dead stop. That can be a personal preference, and that’s fine, but it’s not the end all and be all of the genre by some pretend default.

D4 could have completely deterministic crafting and otherwise play exactly the same. And in that case, the dopamine could switch from finally getting the perfect drop (let’s pretend that exists, for argument’s sake) and finally getting all the mats necessary to make the perfect piece.

There is no real in-game difference between a specific enchantment taking X gold and Y mats on average to roll (and the time to farm), and just picking that one for X gold and Y mats (and the time to farm) other than the latter doesn’t require standing around pressing a button 200 times to get it.

Some people like pressing that button 200 times because they enjoy the thrill of gambling and know that every now and then, it’s going to happen on the first press.

That’s fine. But pretending it has to be that way is selfish and false and doesn’t add anything to the discussion.

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Will catch up to 1 & 2 later.

Ding ding ding! (Or “…it’s going to happen on the next press.” It’s always about the “next” press.)

Suppose this is what Rod wants to cultivate in his target demo? Compulsive gambling is good for business, including MTX sales. There’s a brain chemistry involving 2-3 pathways, and as long as they’re engaged, the loop continues. If the steps in between (equivalent to the lever in a slot machine) are as simple as possible, more subjects will be on them, pulling the lever. Even many “traditional arpg players” have low standards for returns, but IMO this isn’t even Rod’s target demo.

So adding complications to the existing slot machine (like a partly deterministic new UI element that requires the subject to ‘think about & plan one additional thing’) disrupts the flow. Might even ‘teach’ some of the subjects to ‘spend’ less generally, which to a businessman like Rod is bad news for the House.

The higher-dopamine, slightly more complex (more deterministic) systems that help ensure retention among the “traditional arpg players” who want more than slot machines? I bet Rod believes he’s bypassed this, by targeting D4 at a new hybrid demographic, a future-proof customer base that had been mostly untapped in the franchise - the type of demo that inspire all the caveats & disclaimers you embedded in #3.

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I hope they remove item power… it is a terrible system, it makes all stats irrelevant while leveling. And it is the most impprtant stat you have no matter what build you play…

It ruins itemezation.

The goal is to beat the season achievements and get all the sasonal rewards. The fun is optimizing your build to achieve that.

Did mind cages ever directly apply to loot outcomes other than drop rate? I missed that nuance.

Anyway, does anyone think this player-directed-loot-hunt philosophy is what a few people here are hoping S9 mechanic introduces?

Regardless, OP is focused on crafting determinism… which ofc there’s no sign the studio is interested in. I’ve always said the Tempering/MW system was designed to ‘stealth-restore’ the perceived RNG loss that came from trimming item affixes in S4. They’re desperate to maintain baseline ‘engagement’ while not scaring away their bread n butter spenders with overly complicated UI hurdles. Or the devs don’t trust themselves to know how to build those properly… which is very believable.

Your goal is different than some.

In your goal setting you don’t need glyphs past 46 or potentially not even to 46. You don’t need great gear at all. You are just tasking to get done. To me that’s not fun.

The other side may be seasonal goals, highest possible pit levels, and of course replacement gear going to eternal for gear there.

Some of these tasks may overlap. But I think if it’s suggested that only achieving seasonal objectives is the goal then it may be missing a bit.