End-Game and Class Balance

it seems to me that by definition end-game should be replayable and enjoyable without limit.

Now if you take this as a starting point then you are in a scenario where you either have endlessly scaling player power and content to lean on progression OR you have an endgame loop that does not depend on progression.

Assuming PvP is the easiest end game loop to remove the need for progression, then either infinite scaling or PvP require class/build balance.

As D4 creators have essentially stated that class balance is not an objective and that the shifting FOTM OP seems destined to stay… What then is the possibility for true replayable end-game?

What are your thoughts/ideas of how this can be playable longer term? or are we dead ended at playing the season till it has nothing left to offer and picking it up again on the next season?

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Don’t marry any particular game. I come and make 1-2 classes, try a few builds and see how far they go. It usually takes me ~1 month. Then, I move back to my other games.

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Let the pit level determine your complete game difficulty.

You are running pit 150? Every enemy on the map is now treated for you as if it would be a pit 150 enemy.
You want to play a lower diff. Run a lower pit and the difficulty is set to this level.
The mechanic for enemies scaling with players of different level is allready in the game.

So with the exception of these really op builds, averyone can play together and may have the feeling, that they can compete with other players of higher paragon/pit levels or classes.

Best is, you can’t see the difficulty, other players are on, yo maybe also the crying could be reduced to some extend.

This also counts for lair bosses of course.

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I’ll put you down as a vote for dead ended at playing the season and moving on :stuck_out_tongue:

very interesting indeed - So you just remove the Tier structure with the 20/35/50/65 stopping points and scale it directly all the way up?

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This is what I do. I was never one that thought a game had to entertain me forever. That is an impossible expection because no matter what endgame there is, you will eventually get bored with it and new content can never be made fast enough.

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Thats my idea, yeah.
Of course everyone has to find his/her sweetspot fir themselves but that is a thing, Blizz can’t do for you.

Yeah never ending end-game is hard without PvP. Adding other players to the mix as enemies significantly reduces the need to create new content.

Think of it as a blog vs twitter. if the users are making thier own “Content” you can focus on fewer more meaningful enhancements, but again PvP requires balance

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That’s exactly how Warframe works (endless trading and endurance/level cap runs). And I love it! The game is 12 years old and is still so darn good!

I’d still be playing Dark Age of Camelot if they didn’t dumb it down to chase WoW numbers and then dump it in the EA toilet

I mean WoW was Beatles and DAoC was Grateful Dead… both equally valid but not the same. If The Dead started chasing Beatles level album sales it would have been the end of them :wink:

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This seems rather counter intuitive as enjoyable is subjective, and everyone has their limit to how long they wish to play replayable content. My definition of endgame does not involve enjoyment. Now that’s not to say it should or should not be enjoyable, but again that’s subjective.

Personally speaking I like limits put into video games, I enjoy stopping points, whether that’s a soft or a hard stopping point. D4 and other games like it technically have both, but I’d argue everyone reaches the soft stopping point, as I’ve never seen anyone get BiS gear for every single slot, even on Eternal Realms for these types of games. PvP as you mentioned has a soft stopping point as well, seeing as there is no official competition for it with a leaderboard of sorts.

I don’t know of any content that will not become mind-numbingly boring after you’ve done it so many times, in any game mind you, not just Diablo-like games. Now if you have an idea of what your ideal end-game content would be that would keep you interested for 3 months on end, by all means share it with us.

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i played DAoC bordering on obsessively for about 8 years and continued for another 5 or so after it started its decline. I played Diablo for 5 years and if not for DAoC i would likely have played D2 for just as long or longer.

If a game is truly delivering i don’t usually get bored and want to move. I agree completely that this is subjective and some people prefer a game that you can “Beat” while others like me want to continue the journey as long as they can.

After a few seasons of D4 I am still playing but i am actively looking to move on. The moment anything that fits my desires better comes along i’ll be gone.

I kind of did… PvP but that does not seem likely to happen in D4 thats why i started this to see if others had different ideas about it :stuck_out_tongue:

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My D4 endgame is Space Marine 2. Once i finish the season journey, I’ll make a couple more characters to see where my fun builds stand this season… then it’ll be SM2 until season 8.

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hahaha mine is currently D2 and D2R lol

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I got nothing that would fulfill the same level of enjoyment as PVP does for you in terms of endgame content, other than to suggest another game in general. PVP by its nature is always changing, and is unpredictable. PVE content could never hope to match it, not in the same sense anyway, at least for now in D4.

So any suggestion people could give would pale in comparison I feel, as you would need constantly changing endgame content, and no I don’t mean procedurally generated Pits. Not to mention actually having that idea be implemented by the devs would never happen. I’m with Hex on this one though, my true endgame content is another game once I get bored with the current one I’m playing.

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yeah even as i typed the OP i guessed we would end up at dead ended into playing the season and moving on. but that didn’t dissuade me from wanting to explore :wink:

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That’s why seasons last 3 months. Or they are supposed to. It’s supposed to keep you engaged for 3 months.

But as we can see…

I think D4 is good enough, I wouldn’t be here otherwise. It could have been, and could be, so much more though.

I think that the game is severely lacking in skill/build choice (which affects class balance). You’re funneled or shoehorned into a particular set of skills, aspects/gear, passives and paragon with a relative illusion of choice. Some classes require a particular skill or passive to perform well. If a passive is mandatory, it should be “built-in” within the class, or Blizzard should give some other meaningful options. I would even argue that some passives should be incompatible with one another and we should have to choose. Also, due to multiplicative damage stacking to astronomic levels in some case, you’re forced to make sure that all your offensive and utility aspects work with your main damage skill/source. We become overspecialized killing machines usually using one damage skill, and a couple of supporting/effects ones (that usually have for result to increase our damage through mob stacking, or CC, applying vulnerable, or all of them).

Skill tree choices (or lack thereof) : Maybe in a future expansion, I would like to see some skill changing passives that aren’t tied to an item, like runes were in D3. Each skill should have a slightly expended tree beyond it with some options to change its element, effect, change from a Core skill to a basic one, change to a channeled one, etc., even if one ends up being better than the other. The current two options are limitative and usually poorly balanced too (thanks Blizzard for being bad at balancing).

That would require some aspect tweaking, new vfx, and changes to some paragon legendary nodes to be more inclusive when it comes to damage type. However, they would need to really tune down the overall multiplicative bonuses we get from any source to balance the whole thing as damage currently get out of hand, and that’s with a relative illusion of choice. What would happen if we had even more choice? They really messed up with the whole multiplier stacking paradigm.

Endgame : The endgame is bland. It’s even worse since they tied almost everything to Pits run and glyph levels. We need other activities to give Glyph level/exp, and we need something challenging that isn’t running a map full high damage high HP sponges in less than 15 minutes.

As for PvP : I don’t PvP unless it’s a fair system, with standardized stats. Maybe throw in some team mini games / objectives, or its of little to no appeal to me. However, it never was a Diablo thing for PvP to be balanced, so it probably won’t happen in D4. If they wanted to balance it a little bit, every skill or effect would have its PvE damage, and its PvP damage, and not a simple reduction all across the board.

Anyway, Blizzard is probably thinking all of this is unecessary as all they have to do is give us a minimal effort patch and expansion every now and then.

With more choice is the skill tree, we would obviously still have FOTM builds and skills. There’s no way around it: It’s an ARPG, and to keep people coming back every season, they need to add new items and tweak stuff. By doing so, it usually introduce a new multiplicative bonus that takes a skill to another level. If they kept the multiplicative bonuses at a much lower level, it definitely wouldn’t be that crazy (i.e. we would have builds that hit for 4-5 times more, obviously, but no builds that hit for 100-1000x more.).

+1 to that, & another +1 for your music cites.

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I understand. As for PvP, it’s hard to see. If stats were standardized, being one shoted would not happen, ever. There’s obviously the PvP Player damage reduction, but what good is a damage reduction if a skill hits for 1000B? I have not touched PvP (as in, I didn’t find anyone in a PvP zone while leveling some alts in S6), so maybe that changed since release.

I know, ARPG are a different beast altogether, and perfect balance is never going to be a thing as there’s always some options that are better than the rest through skills points/passive/gear stats stacking, but I would love to see things closer together, so that a player doesn’t feel too bad for using a skill that is 2-3 times worse than the other. They have the tools to do so, they simply refuse to give a damn.

I know, D3 sucks and all, but I used to be able to make some pretty damn good builds and runs in D3, even early season ladder worthy ones, even without using “THE” meta rune for a given season. Maybe it changed for the worse since then, but at least during the early D3 RoS period, most skills runes were within 20-30% of the overall final damage of another, or the lower damage one did add some effect that could complement something else. 20-30% was enough to push you out of the top tier Greater Rifts, without really punishing you for using them if you didn’t care about leaderboards. I purely went with the damage type (explosion color) and theme I wanted to play, and did it.

Current D4 is a more complicated beast, but I feel like they went too far with the specific damage types.

standardized pvp stats is the lazy “balance is hard” approach. not saying i can do it better but DAoC did so it is possible

DAoC had many more damage types and had debuffs for specific resists that were given to classes that didnt deal that type of damage making group pvp much more compelling :wink: