Builder, Builder, Builder, Builder, Builder, Builder, Spender.
Not great.
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I like it as a rogue. I love the fast speed, I never clicked so fast with mouse buttons! It’s hectic and chaotic. I appreciate the ultra fast paced combat. And because of that I can see how annoying it would be in builds without that speed. I think it’s a mechanic that have to be better tailored or changed depending on the class.
I agree rogue is super fun, but it feels like it’s despite this mechanic than because of it.
for my druid it’s buider, builder, spender, spender, spender! feels good.
First Blizzard game?
Using a skill labeled “basic attack” by the developers 60+% of the time, unsurprisingly, feels pretty bad.
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From my experiences, the complaining surrounding WW barb were simply just people whining because it required more effort. I have time and time again sustained WW for over 10 seconds by just grouping up enemies into a tight ball and then casting it. If the enemy density is high enough, you generate more rage than it costs to channel.
Also, at least for barbarian, if you only assign one skill from each node there is literally only one spender: your core skill. There are also so many passives and affixes that boost resource generation as well.
I struggle to really understand what people are making a big deal of.
I haven’t tried barb myself, but I have played and watched some sorc play and you seem to have to wait on mana a lot.
From my understanding of it with Barb tho, it’s that you can’t keep up things like shouts and optimal play ends up being you have to just stack everything, clear out a bunch of mobs, then wait to repeat the cycle.
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I tried sorc out during the open beta and the level 25 cap in WT2 had me feeling stupid strong. I imagine resource management is more significant at higher levels.
I have not used a single shout at all since D4 launched. My build is:
- Fury
- WW (just changed to HOTA)
- Ground Stomp
- Charge
- Steel Grasp
- COTA
I’ve been getting along just fine. They substantially changed how certain skills work compared to previous games, but the system isn’t broken.
I see, I don’t think it’s an issue of strength though. If anything the game feels easy, at least to me.
The issue is more from a fun perspective of waiting on resources and nothing you can really do about it, and having to use builders a lot when you are out of resources. So instead of using a bunch of fun engaging abilities and having fun you’re constantly filling it with stuff you don’t find fun basically.
I’m glad you’re having fun, it’s just something I’ve seen mentioned a lot.
I definitely feel that way in certain situations. Other times, I have to struggle because of a weakness in my build/resists.
It will be harder to gauge my 2nd char cuz i’m going to have all these shrines, but most the bosses just feel like damage sponges and aren’t very dangerous. I have almost no defenses either outside of the barrier aspect and some 45 hp/s per stack of my momentum passive. I do have good reaction times though from playing fighting games.
The only time I felt really challenged was trying to do the WT4 capstone dungeon as a level 53 instead of 70, I did have to backout of that. Everything else tho? Pretty easy.
I like it, makes you think before you do.
It’s definitely not. I can get along fine on my necro build, it’s even outstanding in AOE situations. The problem is that I can burn 3 spenders and then take 15+ swings to refill the stupid meter or stand there and pop 15 corpses afterward (assuming I’m lucky enough to have those there) if I get stuck fighting a single creature.
Builder/spender isn’t necessarily a problem on its own. It’s the balance of it that’s way out of whack. Generators don’t generate enough, spenders cost too much, and the damage balance between the two is way too drastic. It makes it feel like you’re wasting your time between using attacks that are actually effective.
I also personally think that it’s kind of a major problem that this scenario applies to every class, and that the core gameplay of every class feels roughly the same because of it.
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I’m playing an Arc Lash Sorc and did the WT3 capstone at 60 with minimal problems, and it solves the spender problem.
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I wouldn’t mind it if the builder didn’t feel like a wet noodle. It’s close to pointless.
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I despise basic attacks. It’s “ok” for levelling but you should be able to transition out of it and just use your core skill + whatever else u want.
It’s only function is to slow the gameplay down. Just nerf the core skills if needed if you dont have to worry about resource.
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The premise of “builder + spender”, according to developers like Blizzard and Grinding Gear Games, is that the "builder’ is supposed to be your primary attack, the thing you use on white mobs to put put through the game. When you reach a difficult mob, like a blue / yellow mob, or just want to clear a pack of white mobs all at once, then you use your “spender”. It’s meant for burst damage, when you are dealing with a dangerous enemy that you want to get rid of quickly before it gets rid of you quickly.
The problem with this sort of philosophy, is that the game balance doesn’t ever really support that. Builders become resource generators for your spenders which are the only real source of damage you have against all enemy types. It shifts the hierarchy up one tier, so that spenders are your normal attack and your cooldowns are used for the tough rares and such. Then your really long cooldowns get used to burn down bosses because all the previous tiers deal relatively mundane damage.
Like for the rogue, you use your basic attack just so you can acquire enough ignition for your actual damaging attack, the thing that uses the combo points. Or as a spell caster, whatever gives you the mana generation so you can dump your entire reserve to kill an enemy … to wait to have it filled again.
The problem is definitely that there are too many tiers of skill usage, trying to make things situational and “gamey”. Which results in your default attacks having too little punch, otherwise your cooldowns don’t hold their weight or purpose in a fight.
Resource management is an age old archaic game design power fantasy, that has not once worked for the game it was in. It goes through countless iterations of devs trying to reel it back as players do everything possible to circumvent it entirely.
Cooldown spam ends up being the end game goal, as otherwise it just doesn’t sustain enjoyment for the player. Game design just doesn’t make it work as a fantasy mechanic; the combat is either too fast for it to make a difference, or too slow for you to do anything but wait for cooldowns to come up to clear mobs. The end result is that it’s either ignored entirely for passive alternatives, or turned into your only attack method. It shares the same fate as builder + spender, because the fantasy of it cannot match how it works as a mechanic in game.
The only thing that works / matters if whether you can adequately / efficiently clear mobs with something with as few steps as possible to do so. needing two skills in alternating tandem is already two too many skills on a hotbar with cooldowns. You’re just sawing back and forth and creating monotonous RSI. Players pick up on that pretty quick, and get away from it.
PoE and D3 have both shown that players absolutely do not care to use multiple skills at once for a build, they will look for the least amount necessary to create enjoyment and a pain free experience. Both games have failed to display why that would be the wrong way to play / think, yet they repeatedly tried to force players into that age old fantasy anyway. Each and every time they’ve met backlash for it, and players figure out how to play without it.
The only way to make builder + spender work, is for devs to give up fantasy control of their game to the players, and raise the power floor so that a builder is all you need for 90% of the game. Considering how many times devs will say “We expect players to be overpowered, that’s what the power fantasy of games is all about” , while removing any semblance of it when they can … I doubt we will see that happen.
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PoE doesnt have a basic attack/generator. You pick a “core skill” of your choosing then you use that together with utility/auras/buffs/vaal skill.
You have multiple options to sustain your resource:
Use a mana pot (typically used for campaign levelling)
Invest in enough mana generation passively, most used by spellcasters.
Eldritch battery keystone where your energy shield is used as mana instead of it protecting your life, typically used by spellcasters.
Mana leech, this only works for attacks so bows and melee. Anyone who uses an attack has this as their mana generation.
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seems like its a bigger problem in the current version of the game… didnt really have eny issues in eny of the betas… but now my rogue runs out of energy pretty much every fight…
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