I’m tempering a ring, choosing between two options (assuming best possible roll)
I crit strike basically 100% of the time. And I Freeze just about every single enemy I hit (aside from bosses, of course)
Suppose I choose #2 and I hit a frozen enemy who is vulnerable and the hit just happens to overpower. Does that +90% end up being one of the additive values in all 4 damage buckets? (Normal, Critical. Vulnerable, and Overpower)?
All +damage affixes are additive
If I understand it correctly, no. The only bonuses that add to the last three buckets are bonuses with the same name (critical, vulnerable, or overpower.) Everything else is added into the normal one. So you won’t benefit multiple times from the same bonus.
+crit damage, vuln damage, and overpower damage are still in the same bucket as everything else but only apply to crits vuln and overpower
Honestly the easiest way to think about it is to remove the word bucket from your mind all +damage is additive and applies to what ever condition it is attached to
If that is the case, it sounds like I am better going with #1 (+85.0% crit damage) then. Given that I crit every hit, that will apply to all hits, including hits on bosses, and not to just hits on frozen enemies. The only difference would be +5% which is negligible. Plus that additive bonus gets the benefit of the 50% crit multiplier which means in the end, it’s actually larger than the cold one (which gets no crit mutliplier).
Is that correct?
The first part of that is correct the second part about the crit mulitplier doesn’t apply to the +crit damage any different then your other additive damage as all the additive damage gets added together to make one number but if your critting on every hit it would less conditional then frozen
if you have a 90% crit chance and don’t crit for 10 minutes or something does it tear a hole in the multiverse like the LHC?
90% crit chance doesn’t exist you either have one of two things
A. 100% crit and you crit every time
Or
B. 50% crit you either crit or you don’t
The coefficients of Critical Strike, Overpower, and Vulnerable can be thought about as separate than Additive buckets. When you Critically Strike, it isn’t “boosting” your Additive Critical Strike Damage bonus making that stat more attractive.
When you look at Additive Damage, you should be looking at the Value comparative to its uptime. If you are Critically Striking enemies 100% of the time and enemies are always Vulnerable, it does not matter if you take +Critical Strike Damage or +Vulnerable Damage if the values are the same. If they aren’t, go with the higher of the two.
As it relates to Crowd Control, Blizzard has really messed up here as the values tend to always be Additive and same or lower as let’s say “non-conditional” forms of damage. As you said, because you cannot Freeze a Boss, that entire Additive bucket can be thought of as 0.
If that sounds bad, that is because it is. Blizzard could easily fix this by allowing the Conditional to affect the Boss without it being CCed. This would mean when you “Freeze” the Boss, it would have a Debuff that counts it as “Frozen” such that anything that benefits from that Condition would benefit.
Suddenly, all of these CC builds, Aspects, Uniques all become more well-rounded and viable. The other option would be to make Conditional CC Multiplicative which players would have to weigh as it would perform very well for Trash, but be worthless for Bosses.
With “Loadouts” coming, this would be pretty lame considering then the Meta would be to go with this then switch to Single Target Boss build. I mean, this is already pretty much guaranteed to happen but eh.
Simple formula is
Weapon dmg x (main stat/10) x 1.5 if Crit x 1.5 if OP x 1.25 if Vuln + appropriate additive dmg.
Then you can include your other multipliers from paragon or whatever.
Wait a minute. The bucket-specific coefficients might be separate but they are there and they are multiplied by result of all the other calculations with the additive percentages for each bucket.
And, most importantly, the crit bucket multiplier is 1.5 while the vulnerable multiplier is only 1.2.
So yes, mathematically it certainly must matter whether I take a +crit damage additive value or a +vulnerable damage additive value, even if I were to do both all the time. Even if both additive values are the same.
Critical Strike Damage isn’t the only thing getting modified. Your Damage is getting modified. A Critical Strike on a Vulnerable target does not apply this then that.
You can get 100% crit… so how can you not get 90% crit? You have a typo or something?
Again, I don’t understand you. Let me state my understanding and you can tell me where I’m going wrong.
Maybe Blizzard should have done the following:
A.) Make damage and/or damage calculations simplified.
B.) Make damage calculations simplified in how they are reported to the user; i.e. allow the users to see accurately the damage and not have to go to a 3rd party website to use a calculator or spreadsheet.
C.) Anything else other than this current system
D4’s whole damage & buckets upon buckets of multipliers vs additives vs who the bleep knows makes me yearn for the days I could look at armor A and compare with armor B and would see right away the plusses and minuses to using either or. The dirty secret to this game is that more players are going to or having to go to 3rd party websites to follow guides. This is the reality of this game. What they needed to have done is designed a system to allow the player to accurately see what the affects and consequences are with different skills, items, etc…
You have damage x% which gets added in every time you do damage.
Then you have a host of conditional additive bonuses that ALSO get added in when their conditions are met (crit, vuln, frozen, close, distant, etc etc).
Then it gets multiplied:
Crit? x1.5
Vuln? x1.2
Etc etc
Yes I understand all that. But coming back to what I said a few posts ago, that again means that taking the +85.0% crit damage bonus is a better option for me than taking the +90% “damage to frozen enemies” bonus. Even if every enemy I faced were frozen (they’re not). Because my critical strike chance is 100% so I crit strike on every hit.
Because “damage to frozen enemies” only goes into the normal bucket, where the bucket multiplier is only 1.0. Whereas critical strike damage goes into the crit bucket, where the bucket multiplier is 1.5, meaning that +85.0% goes a lot farther there.
Sure they all get added together in the end. But if I can pick a bucket, the crit bucket is the way to go.
Is any of what I just said incorrect?
If your Critical Strike Chance is 100%, a +85% Critical Strike Damage is better than a +90% Damage to Frozen Enemies, unless enemies are also always Frozen. The 1.5x damage is applying to your Additive Critical Strike Damage and your Damage to Frozen Enemies.
Let’s say you have +1,000 Critical Strike Damage and +1,000 Damage to Frozen Enemies. If your Critical Strike Chance is 100% and your Chance to Freeze Enemies is 100%, effectively you have +2,000 Damage being modified every time you Critically Strike.
If you have 0 Critical Strike Damage and +2,000 Damage to Frozen Enemies with the same 100% Crit Chance and 100% Chance to Freeze Enemies, it is effectively the same thing.
Now, we know your Chance to Freeze Enemies is not 100% and given that you cannot Freeze Bosses as you said and the Additive Damage difference in your example is only +10%, it does not make sense to take +Damage to Frozen Enemies. You are far better off taking the lower Additive Damage because it applies to every hit on every Enemy.
Your Chance to Freeze Enemies would need to be like 99% and you would have to be able to Freeze Bosses for you to consider that over +Critical Strike Damage. So basically, as an Additive Bucket, +Damage to Frozen is garbage.
[EDIT]. I wrote a long question but I now deleted it. I am re-reading your reply now I and I see I misunderstood you. You were not saying that “damage to frozen enemies” goes into multiple buckets.
So I think I understand it correctly then. Even if I were guaranteed to freeze everyone 100% of the time and to crit 100% of the time, it is still better to choose the crit additive bonus over the “frozen enemies” additive due to the 1.5x crit multiplier. Unless the difference in additive bonus values was very large.
The 1.5x crit modifier applies to all your applicable additive damage for that hit. Is it frozen? Frozen+ is multiplied. Crit? Crit+ is multiplied. Is it alive? Damage+ is multiplied. Is it vulnerable? Vulnerable+ is multiplied. Is it close? Close+ is multiplied. Burning? Poisoned? Multiplied. Multiplied.
So you have to determine what will be applied most often and/or whether a higher value on a less frequently applied status is worthwhile.