Compound Ability Trees

Let’s put why Diablo IV is failing into three buckets:

  1. Old, unoriginal, simplistic, basic combat. From abilities being lifted from preceding games to entire builds being focused on doing one thing for tens and even hundreds of hours there is little in this game that advances general gameplay or the genre. What was novel and satisfying decades ago at the dawn of gaming is niche and uninspiring now. There are still people who enjoy and swear by it, but tellingly even those people admit “Diablo” is for a chill, mindless power fantasy trip. See some monsters explode after a hard day’s work or when you want to relax. Bygone are the times when a game like this could be considered a masterpiece - now it’s at the bottom of the totem pole in terms of what gaming stands for. In other words, Blizzard have managed to turn The Devil into a punk-b1tch. “666”, “hell”, “terrifying”, and using some dark colors are the marketing lipstick they put on this decadent pig.
  2. Lack of exciting and worthwhile itemization and endgame. What most players find redeeming about the ARPG small-boned skeleton is that you can put a lot of meat on it with items. This grind and chase represents enough progression and reward to keep at least a nucleus of players happy. Without it the abomination is lifeless.
  3. Mostly lack of difficulty with pockets of unfun, uninteractive difficulty. Mindlessness has its limits. Do you guys not have phones?

A Compound Ability Tree, which is a term I just made up that may or may not be very suitable for what I’m about to outline, can be thought of as an ability that branches out. Let’s leave the Basic and Core abilities aside. The remaining four are the industry standard - usually you press the corresponding button once, the ability activates, and then it goes on cooldown. What I’m proposing is that pressing the button once is just the beginning or gateway. The single ability, whatever it is, activates, but as opposed to going on cooldown it goes to the second level of the particular ability tree. The four ability slots change to whatever the second level of that ability tree is, the buttons stay the same. In essence, the levels of the tree replace your abilities until you complete the tree, i.e. until you perform one ability on every level of the tree. The abilities don’t have to be related to each other or to the initial ability at all except for being placed on the same tree (e.g. 1-4-4-etc.). Finally you’re back to the four normal abilities and the initial ability can go on cooldown.

The Compound Ability Trees can be an entirely endgame mechanic delivered to players in the form of “loot” - an extension and intensification of the item chase and progression. The ability trees have to be built out through special items you find and earn, i.e. mostly drops. Let’s say that these ability trees date back to the time when the Nephalem were at their strongest and were capable of doing greater things. Somebody decided to catalogue the knowledge of this greater power and to suffuse the writing with whatever essence, magic, etc. is requisite to perform it. These are the rare items you encounter in Sanctuary. To have an ability tree of this sort you may first need a Tablet (like Moses and the Ten Commandments, except it boils down to Thou Shalt Kilt Myriad Monsters and Daemons). Then on this tablet you can slot items akin to Spell Scrolls that represent each ability in the tree. You can also have Passages of Conjunction that are slotted between levels representing some sort of modifier. Akin to Runewords you can even have some final level ultimate abilities conditional on what you did. There is a lot of flexibility in this framework beyond what is explicitly described.

The guiding principle is an emphasis on the active rather than the passive - putting power in the hands of players rather than baking it into the system. Letting players make choices and challenging their execution. Let’s consider the potential impacts this system could have on the fundamental problems of the game:

  1. You can seriously raise the ceiling and dynamism of dated combat while bypassing the technical and player mechanical issue of increasing the number of buttons. Not only would variety and possible combinations increase there should be competitive and conditionally better choices within ability branches. The expansion in choice can go hand-in-hand with increased difficulty in monster/boss/enemy design to induce players to have various options within branches to respond to dynamics on the battlefield (additionally, deeper levels should perhaps be unavailable until populating shallower levels with abilities being easily redistributable, or there could be variance in this too, many things can vary should be repeated). When you stop just baking things into the game and hand power to the player directly then you can take challenge outside of the realm of background math and onto the actual screen for players to react to.
  2. Loot takes an exciting and long term dimension. Drops can meaningfully change or enhance characters over many hours of playtime specifically in the problematic endgame. Players will also have to mix, match, and play with what they come across rather than just having builds and itemization progressing blandly.
  3. Presently the game faces bipolar issues of difficulty. The biggest one is lack of it, however, where it exists (e.g. in higher level Nightmare Dungeons) it often takes the uninteractive and unfun form of being one-shot or CCed to death. You can also just get pummeled/overpowered. A damned if you, damned if you don’t sort of dilemma. Boring one way and boring the other. By improving combat you create room for funner difficulty reliant on action/reaction, choice, and execution. When the player character is less limited in what it can do monster design can become more active and dynamic too, present more of a threat with a greater capacity to counter or outplay it.

This could be very difficult to implement and the implications are far-reaching, but it’s exactly the sort of ambitious and innovative thinking that this game needs. It could also be partially implementable and of course testable as seasonal content. Betting on nostalgia has been going on for too long and has failed too many times. The irl treasure goblins who took the Diablo name for granted to the bank have decisively tarnished it and thinking small from here on out is waving the white flag, imo. I also want to point out that as an endgame system/mechanic this is intended to raise the ceiling rather than exclude the people who by their own admission just want to derp around in the world of Sanctuary. Evidently those people are insufficient, and the true spirit of Diablo should be greater.

So kinda like those mobile ARPG games? You spam one touch and the character does all these flashy moves?

I don’t have experience with any mobile games, but I’m willing to bet no. In fact, many of these abilities don’t have to be particularly flashy. Think of it like this. You click a button to perform one ability. You perform the ability but instead of it going on cooldown and being left with the rest of your normal abilities, some of which may also be on cooldown, your ability buttons are remapped to other abilities (those on the second level of the ability tree you just initiated). To progress to the third level you have to click any of the four buttons again, except hopefully you aren’t just spamming one button or mashing buttons. Why? Because sometimes you want to perform an ability with a lower area of effect but higher damage, while other times you want to perform a larger AoE ability with lower damage, while other times you need to use a mobility ability to avoid a lot of damage, etc. There are also combos, modifiers, different elements and effects, etc. It’s about having control and making choices as opposed to just stuff being on the screen. Stuff being on the screen is fine too, but not in a dumb or flash for its own sake manner.

That is a pile of text, on top of another pile of text, pretending to be paragraphs. Let’s see if we can’t clean this up a little:

Cliff Notes Version:

Diablo 4’s Failings:

  1. Boring Combat. Basically we need something “new”.
  2. Itemization and endgame. Itemization is horrible, needs to change.
  3. Unfun mindless grinds.

Compound Ability Tree: Combo system with abilities (aside from Basic/Core abilities).

Let’s use Corpse Explosion in this example, you use Corpse Explosion and it then turns into another ability you can press (using the same hotkey as corpse explosion on your bar), such as the ability to make the corpse rise up and run toward an enemy instead, then it will turn into an ability to use up 5 corpses to summon a bigger zombie that explodes for more damage, etc. After using up the combo system of abilities it will revert to its normal ability of Corpse Explosion and start the process all over again.

However here’s the catch, you need to find special items to be able to build out your ability tree to obtain these extra combo abilities of a said skill. Insert your own way of obtaining these items.

OP goes on to describe the system and how it will impact endgame and add another grind to the game to give players something worth playing for.

Interesting idea, don’t see it happening in Diablo 4. WoW is the only game so far to completely re-do ability tree’s. D2 had small tweaks to add synergy to ability trees, D3 had tweaks to runes, and D4 I imagine will only have number changes to each ability/passive within the tree.

Was a nice post though, aside from the lack of spacing and giant walls of text.

1 Like

It’s not a combo system per se. It’s merely a containment and execution structure. One ability doesn’t have to be related to another. It’s not about redoing but adding. Not seeing things happening is how games tend to die or merely limp on, in my experience. Working within the existing tree and slot limitations constrains improvement. This game is not only old in its essence but also quite basic. What good are such changes in the big scheme of things? Lastly, when was the last time you read even an actual article, let alone a book? The spacing was normal, some formatted as a list. I actually kept it relatively short. :wink:

I keep wondering how many people have played D3 since launch. It seems to me that there are very few. D3 at launch did not have nearly the depth of anything that it did now and it took longer than 100 hours to complete; there were items that you could not even get in the campaign; etc. but people stuck with it. It was 2 years and Reaper of Souls before the game even looked close to what it does today.

Similarly, do not even get me started on D2. Other than it was much closer to an Open World but you could not hop from zone to zone. There was not even a real option to respec. So, if you forgot that Mephisto was immune to Lightning, it could really suck to be a magic using class.

Give the game some time. It will take time (unless the devs really are mindless zombies working for a delusional overlord) but the game will get there.

I read a lot of books actually, and none of them look like the wall of text you just displayed in your original post.

So let’s do an expirement.

Your original first paragraph and point being made about various failings of Diablo.

Now with just a few basic edits, and spacing added to make it easier to read.

  1. Old, unoriginal, simplistic, basic combat.

From abilities being lifted from preceding games to entire builds being focused on doing one thing for tens and even hundreds of hours there is little in this game that advances general gameplay or the genre. What was novel and satisfying decades ago at the dawn of gaming is niche and uninspiring now.

There are still people who enjoy and swear by it, but tellingly even those people admit “Diablo” is for a chill, mindless power fantasy trip. See some monsters explode after a hard day’s work or when you want to relax. Bygone are the times when a game like this could be considered a masterpiece - now it’s at the bottom of the totem pole in terms of what gaming stands for.

In other words, Blizzard have managed to turn The Devil into a punk-b1tch. “666”, “hell”, “terrifying”, and using some dark colors are the marketing lipstick they put on this decadent pig.


  1. Lack of exciting and worthwhile itemization and endgame.

What most players find redeeming about the ARPG small-boned skeleton is that you can put a lot of meat on it with items. This grind and chase represents enough progression and reward to keep at least a nucleus of players happy. Without it the abomination is lifeless.


  1. Mostly lack of difficulty with pockets of unfun, uninteractive difficulty. Mindlessness has its limits. Do you guys not have phones?

Now I ask which looks better?

I use a very simplistic method, could’ve been used throughout your whole post to make it at least somewhat more presentable. Now you do ramble a lot in your post, that could easily use some editing, you tend to go off on a rant more so then approach the subject matter, which tends to lose people reading your post. I don’t expect people to be english majors on here, but I would suggest giving your own post a once over before submitting it.

Your Compound Ability Tree is exactly like a combo system though, regardless if the ability changes into something completely different or along the same lines of the ability being used it has to use that first ability to start the sequence and then when the series of combining abilities are used it will revert back to the original ability that started it all.

You use one ability which then turns/combos into another ability and the process repeats for up to 4 times, using a total of 4 different abilities starting from the original. Combo being short for combination, a set of actions performed in sequence, that yield a significant benefit or advantage. In this case, one ability changes into another in sequence until the combo is finished.

You could even go a step further and add a timer, so after the first ability is used when it changes into the next you only have 5 seconds to use it or it reverts back to the original for example. Many ways to tweak the system, but it is all for intents and purposes a combo system.

I think the character ability tree is uninspired and boring. There isnt much real choice at all. You pick a couple skills then dump 30+ points into passives. There is one interesting choice. The main keystone. That is about it.

2 Likes

since there are 6 skills that can go into the task bar, you are rather underestimating the skill choices. Still, your basic point is valid. Although, depending upon your build, I would argue that the Key Passive is picked for you.

It seems like the mindless zombies are those who hang around for many years to appreciate glacial change. D3 is what happens when you “give the game some time”. No one really knows and no one really cares.

Let’s not argue about you breaking an eight-sentence paragraph into one headline and three mostly two-sentence paragraphs you find digestible. It’s quite beside the point of the post, although I’m very curious about the sort of books you read.

You’re not going on an irrelevant tangent at all. English should be capitalized and “once over” hyphenated.

I believe we all know the definition of combo/combination, so there’s another paragraph no one needs to read. I know what a combo is - let me state for the third time, unequivocally, that the abilities within the compound ability trees don’t have to be related. The point isn’t combos per se - it’s space, quantity, and choice. Think of it like a canvas, a postmodernist one.

You could even go a step further and actually read what the OP is writing. What you describe is merely one possibility.

Yes.

No. Only loosely in a manner you demonstrably don’t understand. It is a system that first and foremost seeks to expand the number of different actions a player takes and the choice of those actions.

I don’t quite agree with there being no further options that you’d like to pick, but as critically as anything the end-result is uninspired and boring. That to me is the game’s greatest weakness.