[Assuming affix balance gets fixed] - 3 next important steps to take

PC General Discussion
1

First of all, I’m assuming that they announce the right changes, Crit gets some wrench, Vuln no longer is the “go to” thing to combine with it, there are some other affixes that gain traction, new affixes are added to “mix things up” a bit

And say that itemization perhaps isn’t as much improved, but definitely much better than it used to cause now more affixes can be worked with, so IYO what would/should the question/focus of further improvements/discussions be ?

In other words - assuming we get another source of power/progression in endgame other than re/running NDMs and itemization becomes well/decent represented for each possible build, what would the “next big thing to fix” be ?

Well, to me gets kinda obvious in statement at least addressing the “frustration” of the (end)game. But that also implies a simple fact - in order to determine the right decisions, we have to understand where that “frustration” comes from in the first place

Perhaps people might not agree with this statement but I’ll start my analysis from it as a ground-point:

  • Getting stuck at one place is frustrating, getting stuck at 2 is a hint for learning opportunity, getting stuck at 3 is the real opportunity

(Well it’s kinda a reverse thought from a known sentence that “having one choice left is bare survival, being stuck with 2 is exploit, but having 3 or more choices is a freedom of choice”)

Right now if (say you haven’t but if you did) get stuck in D4 what was the main/common reason for it ? - was it cause your build was bad ? (I’d argue no), was it cause you played bad ? (maybe at an occasion but that does not explain the potential high frequency of struggle at times)

That being said - the reason is most likely 99% the following:

  • Got stuck cause not enough DPS to break the “threshold” to 1v1 kill a “greater” elite (and even more so - struggle vs 1 also implies struggle vs all of them (or at least the majority)

Perhaps one might say just get more damage - well, that goes against the abovementioned “formula” for fixing things and reduces the importance of increase of difficulty in the late game

In other words - to fix the frustration and turn it in a real-opportunity learning struggle have to add 2 more sources of it to the mix, and perhaps there could be more ways but these 2 kinda seem obvious (at least to a point) to me:

1 - different source of struggle (other than high HP your chosen way of DPS can’t overcome)
2 - different source of struggle in combat category (other than being unable to win 1v1 vs a high-HP elite)

1st one may be partially fixed relatively easily - add different “upgrades” to mobs… Instead of increased HP - increase armor, resistances, regen, aggressiveness, or cast rate… That could be enough to “break” the monotony of what “characteristics” we struggle against, but the second is a bit more tricky

Namely the “problem” with D4 seems like shared/inherited (seen/experienced it in Grim-Dawn for example)… The fact that you kill 99% of mobs in first 5 seconds, and then play 1v1, 1v2 or 1v3 for like next 3-5-10-15 minutes… SAME PROBLEM with D4, not enough DPS (or not enough over a minimal threshold required) results in a long “skirmish” against a few that may or may not end up well (depending on how often you’re forced to disengage or even how much the mob endured and it itself just disengages)

What if we could make it so that there are other reasons ? (more or near-equal monsters spawn at the rate you can kill), or some mobs are really well equipped vs what you’re trying to pull off in your build ?

The differences in the latter case may be subtle but can be distinguished… The first one is obvious - need an alternative/advanced re/summoning mechanism in the game

TLDR - yes, talked about this before but would like to summarize it in few steps really:

1 - Remove Increased HP. Add Increased Armor, Increased Resistances, Increased Regen, Increased agressiveness, Increased cast rate…
2 - Revert density increase and add proper summoners (improved if need be), but more importantly - especially at the end game add “summoner factories” (i.e. “buildings” that will churn-out new mobs at a near-clockwork rate)… But in order for this to work perhaps have to think of a way to reduce the effectiveness of AoE a bit
3 - Think of diversifying challenges (therefore sources of struggle) in general… Let’s say that there are 3 sources of assets that the player can use/capitalize (single-target snipe, interrupt with CC, interrupt - or keep interrupted - by using Overtime)…

Think of new ways how to make each of these relatively common assets at a player’s disposal “shine” at a time where the other wouldn’t (or at least wouldn’t as much), here are some examples to try:

  • Barrier that’s channeled on another mob (CC the source/caster to prevent it)
  • Buffed stat that is interrupted under CC (increased Armor/Res/Regen or other defensive buff being negated from/under CC)
  • Growing buff-sources that can channel a buff to another mob nearby (such as growing blood boils increasing damage to a certain Vampire nearby but being shrinks based on duration of that engage (overtime has the advantage here, as it’s the only way to target-dps multiple targets at a time hence keeping most of those “buff emitters” reduced/downgraded/shrinked…)
  • Snipeable utility/ies (for ex. Nangari Oracle Eye that stuns becoming Snipeable or the larger Missiles that say Succubi launch) - by adding things like this rewards both - single-target gameplay as well as player’s focusing skills

By doing these 3 changes - gameplay (or at least the sources of struggle) will get diversified, people will no longer get stopped (if/when that happens) by the same source of struggle over and over again, reasons will differ (and therefore will the respect for the game)

That’s IMO like the next “must fix” feature for the game before things get really much better and worthy of a long/lengthy journey and challenge… :thinking:

BUT, keep in mind, still kinda vouching for the “what’s not broken don’t fix”, so these mob-buffs/changes would be something intended either for WT5 or for WT4 (with exception of “summon factories” buildings/units, those could, and probably should, occur here & there but at smaller numbers somewhat early)

Whaddya think ? :slight_smile:

2

I think there’s way too many assumptions there.

Itemization alone will take this team longer than S 2/3 to fix.

3

The statement that you mentioned (would take them longer than S2/3 to fix itemization) does not necessarily exclude the analysis mentioned/stated above

Though itemization improvement may fix the satisfaction of loot hunt, doubt it will fix the satisfaction of endgame (compared to what is currently the case)

And I also think that we’ve suffered enough with the struggle to not recognize it’s main issue/source (for those that have experienced it at least) though tbh I may have experienced a lot less had I completed renown bonuses before pushing late game

4

Continued work on itemization is the only thing I really care about. It is going to take a while, but the state it is at is so bad that a small tweak is not going to be noticeable. I am thinking a full overhaul of the system, maybe bring back sets, runes, fancy gems, reworking the whole legendary affix system to make them feel interesting. There is a lot of meat on that bone and until it gets addressed I don’t see any changes to the game making a difference to my enjoyment.

ARPGs are one hundred percent about the loot hunt to me, and in its current state there is none. I am not just talking about items being too easy to find, it is more that there isn’t anything interesting to find.

5

Maybe stop selling betas as “finished” games and burning your loyal fans for quick cash. Why should we stick around and wait for it be fixed and or finished?

6

Balance items still requires class skills / build consideration. It’s all interconnected. Along with progression and gear step ups / loot chase relative to progression.

It will have to go through small iterations for it to not break the game.

7

What kept me getting stuck was honestly drop after drop with useless affixes.

The pool is way too bloated. That’s something they can improve without a massive rework by doing things like consolidating affixes like damage to chilled, frozen, slowed, stunned, etc into “damage to crowd controlled” for example.

Making it so that affixes your class does not use can not show up on that class gear would be nice. Sorcerer and Rogue literally do not need overpower for example? They have no builds for it.

Streamlining would help make itemization less painful.

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8

Not necessarily… I’d argue there aren’t enough affixes, the problem is that there are “garbage” affixes that tend to roll often in the late game that have to be removed

  • On elite kill
  • Shrine buff duration
  • Control impairment duration

Agreed :slight_smile: , I’ve gone even a step further than you did:

I prefer the other way round - add general/generic Overpower-specific affixes to make it more reliable in late game affix pool:

  • Evade guarantees overpower (on Boots)
  • Overpower occurs twice (on 2H & Amulet)

Some 2H & OH pool below:

  • Using a CD guarantees Overpower (2H)
  • Every 10th/(6th with 2H) hit Basic skill while shielded (Barrier & Fortify) guarantees Overpower
  • While using an Ultimate every 6th hit guarantees Overpower (4th for 2H)
  • Overpower drops 50% of Shielding but does 75%( more damage (75% and 150% for 2H respectively)

That’s how I’d deal with the “some classes don’t need Overpower” problem…

But even more so - we need more affixes to prop other playstyles so I’d suggest these couple:

  • Increase damage based on resource amount
  • Increase damage based on shielding (Fortify & Barrier) amount
  • Increase damage while on Max resource
  • Basic skill % damage increased based on Thorns amount (higher %)
  • Skill % damage increased based on Thorns amount (lesser %)

Namely affixes that empower/give an alternative playstyle/s (Overpower guaranteed after X) as well as keep-high-resource amount (and shielding) to deal more damage possible (an alternative to Generate, Generate, Generate => high DPS output)

BUT, the question still remains - will that be enough ?, will altering/fixing itemization in such ways that ends up having similar/a-bit-more number of affixes to roll from but more useful at the endgame be enough to fix the current problem ?

I’m leaning towards a NO as an answer tbh… Yes I know many would be happy/ier if this particular problem has been dealt/addressed with but I’m afraid people will still continue to post negative experience/s and won’t be able to tell why cause it’s subtler and requires more thought than just giving an first-hand-experience-based feedback

Which is why I created this topic tbh - the reason/s why game being better but still lacking something - being one/s stated above…

9

I don’t know and I frankly stopped caring at this point. There’s no point in devoting time to a game that receives drastic changes and ruins the characters people have built. All these changes will do is create a new meta for people to chase. I’m tired of getting my build set up just right only for it to be no longer viable because cry babies want to flip the meta. It’ll be the same song and dance once the new meta is figured out. So far it’s just been constant nerfs and “balance” changes until the game is no longer fun.

The devs should be more focused on QoL changes, loot filters and end game content. That’s what this game needs in order to recover. And honestly I believe it’s too late. They waited too long to address the real issues with Diablo 4.

10

Whole itemization have to be reworked.
we have five tiers of gear outside of legendaries ( which are not a gear tier but an upgrade of a tier). white, blue, yellow regular, yellow sacred and yellow ancestral.
the first two are completely skipped. and the next three are a mess,

white gear has zero affixes, blue got one affix, and yellow got three and four… where is the two affixes gear??? ( lets introduce it and call it greens)
should be:
levels tier 1 adventurer levels: 0 -23 drop white and blue, drop “greens” from bosses/goblins
tier 2 veteran 23-53 drop blues and greens from mobs and yellows from bosses /goblins
tier 3 nightmare lvl 53-73 drops greens and yellows from mobs and sacred from bosses/goblins
tier 4 torment lvl 73+ drops sacreds from mobs and ancestrals from bosses/goblins

currently you can find “yellow rares” with four affixes and then “yellow sacred rare” with three affixes.
which is ridiculous, rares should be three affixes, sacreds with four, and ancestrals four with higher rolls.

and as many said, the aspects should be detached from gear and go straight to the codex.

11

I disagree… Yes, perhaps there will be always Meta (though highly doubt so, if things are done right) but the difference is “meta” won’t outclass everything else by a factor of 3x, 4x, 5x, but rather 30-40-50%… And that is important, and I’d even say that is important for even “meta” to struggle at times in the endgame

Depends on your definition of fun…

Mine is different sets of challenge/s (right now the only thing we have is high HP that requires high damage multipliers to break down), and no I don’t think “high density everywhere” for the sake of more explosions and XP gain is fun either (at times ?, yes, but not everywhere across the board as is ATM)

About the nerfs I say maybe more are required lol… We don’t have enough mob strength post 85-90 to give some “headaches” to high-dps builds which is something that everyone tends to run

That’s why I suggested what I did (assuming they fix the of Crit & Vuln >> everything else problem) - monsters need differ in intimidation/complication factor instead of just have high damage (post NMD60 or whenever) and high HP

12

At this point I don’t even really care about balance, just put stuff in there that is actually fun. They can go through balance iterations later, the items now are missing a creative spark that makes the player go “Wow this is cool!” when they find something new. If they try to balance as they go it is going to be years if ever before we see change.

13

Overpower isn’t worth building for unless you can also build up fortify and stack HP right now. You could add the ability to use it to classes, but without the rest of the package it is probably just more item bloat instead of something desirable.

On actual overpower classes, some of these suggestions are incredibly unbalanced and broken…

The boots would have zero competition and become a mandatory item. Being able to front load an extra 4 overpowers when you see an elite with +max evade or virtually doubling your op output with attacks reducing evade cooldown would be incomparable to every other possibility.

Items should be at least somewhat comparable to alternatives you can find in a slot, even if still superior.

Making them incomparable creates mandatory items, which from things like Tempest Roar and Mandeln just creates a feeling for a player like a build is locked away until the game decides to give you a copy after you’re already mostly done playing anyways.

14

You’re assuming you can have both :slight_smile:, I thought as far as boots are concerned it’s kinda obvious I meant an inherent roll

Agreed, that’s why we need more affixes for Overpower (as well as other alternative playstyles like the ones I mentioned above - affixes that reward Resource accumulation of some sorts)

Right now everything is based on Core damage (or say Mastery if there’s a chance you’re running/trying-out a non-Core build), Crit & Vuln and that’s where it ends…

I mean we could hear it from Wudi himself when talking about the introduction of loot filters - “Give me IP 800+ with Crit & Vuln” as if that’s something good, I mean that criteria excludes just about 99.99% loot if not 99.999% tbh)

15

No, I mean either one is completely broken compared to anything else you can put in the boots slot.

If you got max evades, you’d have massive front loaded damage.

Evade cooldown on attack with high speed overpower builds would basically double your overpowers.

Either one is like the power of a 2H aspect, offensively, in your boots.

16

Ok, we’re “debating” a concrete example and sure, it’s not “fleshed out” as an idea but again - the roll options are:

You can have either:

  • Burst of speed on evade
  • CDR of evade per attack
  • Multiple evades (though I’d definitely reduce this to 3 max)
  • Evade grants Overpower (this one alone wouldn’t be as much but combine with “Overpower occurs twice” on your 2H or Amu - might be something worthy of a try)

It’s not like you can have 2 of these, only 1

Speaking of which - can CDR of evade per attack be rolled on a different item slot than boots ? (if so I can’t remember)

17

Yeah, everyone has their priorities,

This is actually very low on my list.

My order is:

Stash
Fix the incentivization on end game
Fix open world incensitvization on end game
Fix social - trade lfg etc
Then work on Balance
but inside balance I think classes and builds need to be fleshed out first.

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