Or… and here me out here… most people are correct about the meaning of words and you inventing new meanings doesn’t make them dumb. The entire concept of genre exists to provide a stable definition that sets the expectations of the consumer and allows them to make better choices about what to put their time into.
And yet, this has been the core of the genre for 24 years, numerous games have come out in the genre and pushed it forward in all sorts of ways without touching this core identity, and the genre is currently in a golden age of popularity. Games have come out that have changed this core identity (see Demon Souls, God of War) and have been treated as being part of a different genre.
I’ll play what’s fun and stop playing when it isn’t fun. You keep making this into an ad hominem argument as if what I’m telling you is invalid because I’m an idiot who can’t understand anything but pressing one button. I’m telling you what the fans of this genre want, based on what they say on forums, what they do in the games, and how al the games in the genre have worked for multiple decades. I’ve yet to play a game that was perfect, I’ve yet to enjoy a game that I didn’t have a ton of ideas for other cool stuff it could do. I’m far from complacent about what this game should be doing. I just don’t agree with your specific idea about how you want to change this game and I think that your general attitude here is that you want D4 to not be an ARPG. If you want to talk about what is dumb, look in the mirror here.
You have a very specific idea of what the “gameplay” is, but you are simply wrong about what people who enjoy this genre get out of the game. There are many ways to improve the gameplay that the players actually want. Adding more things they have to care about during the moment-to-moment play isn’t it.
Lol, people are desperate for a good game. They don’t care what label you slap on it. There will always be people like you who are very conservative who’ll defend a particular game regardless. Always. Yet over the decades the image of a Diablo game has transformed dramatically. Many people play this game unenthusiastically only due to a lack of options as the entire “genre” and gaming more broadly stagnates. Furthermore, now Diablo is niche. No one says, “If you want to play the best of gaming pick up Diablo IV.” You want to know what underdeveloped gameplay for human beings is? Mashing one button constantly watching everything die with the occasional pressing of a few other buttons. Yes, there are people, people who will collect/self-select in a place like this, who are satisfied with the worst gaming has to offer in terms of gameplay. But there’s a bigger world out there. You don’t rely on myopic fools to tell you how to develop a game further. What are these “many ways to improve the gameplay that the players actually want”? I’m very curious, as Blizzard seems to be missing them going on many years now and from my following of this forum I’ve failed to identify any great gameplay ideas as well.
They have improved the gameplay repeatedly each season by adding modes and increasing build diversity and improving the loot hunt. There are many ways they could continue improving those things. But the moment to moment play in D4 is top tier and is one of the reasons it’s so popular. You think it is bad because it’s simple and you equate simple with dumb. But chess will always be simpler and smarter than whatever you are trying to change the game into.
Here are some examples of things that make the moment-to-moment play require more thought, each of which the community has rejected or continues to complain about:
Hard CC from monsters - freezing explosions, the snake stun traps, wind-up attacks that stun or knock you down, etc.
On-death explosions
Suppressor bubbles
High power ranged attacks
Vampiric and mana drain affixes
The NMD affixes that force you to adjust your timing, like the lightning trap, stormbane’s wrath, drifting shade, etc.
Kick and charge gaining benefits by knocking enemies into terrain
Slower paced combat that allows the differences between mob types to be more pronounced
A lot of these require that you put defensive and movement tools in your build and use them at the right times. All of these disrupt the pattern of a build so that you have to pay attention to the fight instead of just mindlessly clicking. All of them have been significantly nerfed or completely removed since launch.
About the only things that require any change in pattern that haven’t seen major complaints are the guys that resurrect fallen and the champion mobs that make everyone tough but evaporate when you touch them. People specifically deride “piano” builds where you are pressing all sorts of keys to make the build work (though I find that kind of build far more fun).
Again, it isn’t that your ideas are so new and fresh and the stodgy old devs haven’t tried to shake up the core gameplay in 24 years. It’s that the players want simple gameplay where they just go out, Hoover up all the mobs like some maniacal cleaning lady, grab all the loot, and make their decisions outside of combat. And many of the players want those decisions outside of combat to be mostly simple too, but they want to feel clever for realizing that life per second isn’t as good as armor or damage.
If you want a constant mental challenge while playing, play bullet chess. It’s pretty fun.
This is me. I have monster hunter and Borderlands 4 on the horizon to look forward too. The last 5 or so years hasnt seen any release that im interested in.
Chess is notoriously complex. The best players are often freaks. The pieces are simple, the combat is not. That combat, that gameplay, is the reason why chess is a historically successful game that has stood the test of time. You must be totally out of your mind to compare Diablo IV to chess.
In other words, because players are limited to so few options in combat requiring them to slot defensive and movement skills leaves them with little else. It’s not that players don’t like to think on their feet or be challenged, it’s that there is nothing the Diablo IV designers can do to escape the limitations of this genre. The action “system” I’ve proposed gives players many more concurrent options. Rather than having to slot and always use just a handful of skills you can have access to multiples of what you’re used to, being able to execute different types of skills on the go. Whereas the ARPG norm is for players to be individual chess pieces, you can become more of a board.
Which I have specifically bypassed through button remapping. Your hands and fingers remain where they are.
There isn’t a single game I’m aware of that utilizes what I’ve suggested. There was like one person who brought up an old game that did something of the sort but I couldn’t find any specifics. It’s not a matter of stodgy old devs, it’s a matter of all of you as entire communities, from the lowest of players to the most respected devs (dipstick streamers and so-called content creators are their own laughable group), have little in the way of purposeful imagination. That’s why innovation is just a word. You use it, it sounds nice and desirable, but practically speaking none of you know what that is. That list that went nowhere you posted, by the way, reminds me very much of that innovation on the edge you’ve written about and the improvement of existing gameplay content. How many years has it been since Diablo 2 again? Seems like Blizzard’s marketing you’re all a lot of empty talk.
Yet players complain constantly about how underwhelming and soulless this game is. As I’ve written before, players themselves are far from a brilliant group. A really good game designer would know that. You give them a good game to play, you don’t rely on them to tell you exactly what a good game is. If players knew exactly what a good game is there would be a lot more good games to play, but players are sheep. All they know is that there’s an “ARPG genre” and they bleat it out with confidence.
I don’t like chess. Depending on what you mean by “bullet chess” I might find that more fun. A little more bullet chess in gaming ain’t gonna hurt nobody.
This is many people, particularly in their mid 20s and beyond.
Chess isn’t complex, it just requires a lot of planning, attention, and mental effort with each move. Simplicity is not the same as stupidity. Adding combos wouldn’t improve the gameplay of chess, even though theorycrafting is a massive component of playing well. Yes, you also have to have the discipline to put your theory into action under time constraints and with an opponent who is trying to disrupt you. Diablo IV doesn’t have the depth of chess because players don’t want the enemies to be that challenging to engage with, not because the rules of execution are too simple. If you just play chess by sitting down at the board and looking for the next move you aren’t going to win because there’s no big dam sword or bugged multiplier that can overpower your opponent. It’s more satisfying to just play Diablo IV and slaughter stuff and try to upgrade that baseline power so you can slaughter more dangerous and rewarding stuff.
My point with the comparison isn’t to say, “Diablo IV is like chess,” it is specifically to say, “Diablo IV is not like chess, and sometimes I want to play a game that takes less mental effort, so it is a good thing that D4 is not like chess.”
Players don’t need more than 1 offensive skill either. They don’t want to use the defensive and movement skills strategically, which is why I said, “and use them at the right times.” They are happy using movement to get to the next pack faster and to dodge the occasional explosion, but they do not want to sit there timing the fire shield or the leap for the moment the boss does its big attack, they want to just hit it every time it comes off cooldown and have enough CDR for it come back up right away.
It is specifically that players don’t like to think on their feet or be challenged. There are many games that do that. People do not want Diablo to do that.
There are tons of ways they could make this into a different game. The players do not want that, so they don’t do it.
I haven’t seen your specific proposal, but this sounds like an entirely different game and probably an overly complex one. Again, if you want to make changes to this game you have to work within the goals of this game.
They remain where they are with piano builds too, you just have to press sequences of keys to make the build work, rather than spamming a single attack with an occasional support click.
I highly doubt this is true, but if it is, then the most likely reason is that it doesn’t work. It’s also possible that you are a game design genius and you need to found your own indie studio to try it out. Sometimes people who stubbornly refuse to accept that others see the world differently can succeed and creating something unique.
Yup, the entire gaming community is wrong and you are right. Go get some funding and prove it.
I have no idea which list you’re talking about. The genre has improved in many ways since D2. That’s why it is seeing a massive resurgence and a ton of new games right now.
The players who complain about the game being underwhelming mostly play PoE, which has exactly the same core mechanics but with more of the theorycrafting stuff you so despise.
There’s a simple rule: when someone tells you something is wrong, they are most likely correct (at least for them); when they tell you how to fix it, they are most likely wrong. All the things I’ve pointed to are things that players specifically didn’t like. Not suggestions they had about exactly what should be done. But go make your game, prove it to everyone how great it is.
Why not? It requires a lot of mental effort for every move - you have to constantly think about how you are positioned and how your opponent is positioned and how to improve your chances of winning. I thought increasing the amount of brain power needed to play a game always made it better. Are you saying that you’d rather play a dumber game?
Bullet chess is a game of chess where each player has 1 minute to complete the game.
In your case I wouldn’t worry about chess or anything becoming like chess at all. Just pick the dumbest available option and keep being happy. Again, I am in favor of preserving that. Dumb people buy games too, as Michael Jordan might say. The thing is, so do smarter people. That’s where this game has some work to do. You can’t be making games for idiots and autists.
You just described what idiots want. Autists want the same thing, plus “theorycrafting”. Other people may want something a little more. Let’s be inclusive, is what I say.
Some people do not want Diablo to do that. Let’s not specify who those people are.
Doesn’t seem like an entirely different game to me, but a richer one.
…So you’re telling me idiots and autists play the piano with one hand that constantly hovers over 4-5 keys? I am shocked. When I’ve seen references to piano builds and fingers and whatever I thought the premise was how normal people would play the piano. See, that’s the problem right there. We need more normal people to play this game so that things start making more sense.
I like the sound of that. The problem is the jury is out on me being a genius whereas the executioner has wrapped up on me being lazy.
Differently or stupidly, as the case may be.
I think your reasoning is off there. What entire gaming community and wrong or right about what? That’s my point about all you people. You’re so unimaginative there is no right and wrong here, this is just something that hasn’t been pursued. All you people know is “ARPG genre” and how to complain. Lol, it’s certainly not a community of geniuses.
The list in your previous post of unsuccessful attempts to make gameplay/combat more interesting. What massive resurgence? This game is by far the most popular ARPG, as you’ve pointed out, and people have poured scorn on it. Most other ARPGs fall off the tree as soon as they bloom, and the freakshow at PoE is more talk than popular success (all they did was dial up the autism, and even with the exploding numbers of that condition and the game being free to play it’s as niche as niche gets). There has been no resurgence since D2, quite the opposite. Streamers will literally talk sht about D4 while playing it. Lol, it’s a matter of growth and money. The market has grown and people play games, including garbage. Gamers self-describe as degenerates for a reason. You have to at least compliment the self-awareness. Take yourself, as an example. You freely admit this is a dumb game to play, as have others I’ve interacted with. This is not some secret or revelation, a sudden realization. Even people who play this game know it’s a dumb game. Well I’m here to tell you that ain’t that good! What do you think of electrolytes?
I agree that PoE is an abomination. I despise the term, not so much putting thought into a build.
You’re like Iggi with a head injury.
Yes, hence why I’m here rather than on a chess forum discussing some random opening of freak #278433.
Good, then it’s settle. Let D4’s core gameplay be dumb, it’s good niche to fill. Creating builds, choosing the right gear from drops to maximize your power in the moment, and then mowing the lawn until you find the next item with some potential is simply a fun game loop. It has been since D2. Hades and Dead Cells and Elden Ring and LoL all also exist and provide their own versions of skill-based play.
Nope! Gotta really think fast to play a coherent game in 1 minute, but it is both doable and a lot of fun.
And yet, you specifically said that you play this game because it is dumb.
And over a billion dollars. Creators are seeing massive boosts to their channels because they cover D4. Last Epoch just released. Titan Quest 2, a new Grim Dawn expansion, and PoE2 are all coming soon. This is the most activity the genre has seen since the original glut of Diablo clones. Yes, more people play games now, but games rarely make a billion dollars on PC and console and and the last time a Diablo game came out there was barely any competition in the space.
Was planning to reply to this in that thread, but it’s just the individual skill skill trees from Last Epoch. I thought you were talking about something where the buttons remapped as you used them or did different things based on the context. I don’t see how your system does anything we don’t already get from them just adding more uniques like Fractured Winterglass.
Show me d4 numbers and how many players actually want this compared to how many quit the game already lol, y’all keep saying the majority want it like d3 when in actuality most people have quit playing.
Player retention is like 40% from launch. That’s outstanding after 15 months. The players who are still here make these complaints and their playstyles show up in the data Blizzard uses. They have no idea why people who quit stopped playing. But they certainly can see what people who stayed like to do and like to complain about.
I don’t remember any D2 players on here yelling about them making cc weaker, taking away vampiric and mana drain and lightning trap NMDs, making suppressor weaker, etc. At most, I heard a lot of D2 players complaining that there were no runewords, you could respec too easily, and there was no loot chase.
This describes a passive ability that you select that modifies how the previously selected on (shooting the ray in the first place) acts. This is how the skill tree in last epoch works. The only difference is that you want people to have to type in a numeric code each time to activate it. I assume this means you think that players will choose something different in different situations? But to make this even a viable option compared to focusing on one variation, they would have to also:
Make it so that you can scale all the damage options equally, which would mean completely revamping the tempering system and either adding more skill points or designing your system so that it only really applies to one skill per build
Change how enemies and environmental effects work so that you got some benefit out of the in-combat flexibility provided
Beef up enemies or nerf players so that things die slowly enough for you to be able to triple the number of button presses required to attack them and still have something left to attack
And even if they did all 3 of these things, I doubt this is the right way to achieve the complexity your after. The reason fighting game systems work is because the buttons have dedicated functions like high kick, medium kick, low kick, that can be modified by a combo but roughly retain their meaning. High kick doesn’t suddenly become block, low kick doesn’t suddenly become an overhead hammer punch.
You’re suggesting that I enter a 3-digit code to get the effect I want (and memorize 64 of these codes for each build), but why not just use the PoE controller scheme, where I can use the face buttons to provide 4 options, hold the right trigger for 4 more options and hold the left trigger for 4 more options? Why not create synergies between the existing skills instead of adding new, unrelated skills that only pop up once I use a base skill?
No, every button press is an action. There is no numerical code activation.
I never cease to be caught off-guard by boneheadedness. IT’S NOT A “FIGHTING” GAME. Stop thinking of things you’ve seen before and relating everything to them. Also, it’s not your, it’s you’re. If your mind can’t handle the cognitive dissonance stick to the classic gameplay. I don’t want to limit options because some bozos would short-circuit if keys remap to different actions. You would be able to slot additional actions yourself so figure out something that makes sufficient sense to you or just keep mashing that win button to your heart’s content at a different setting.
PoE “scheme” is I presume the traditional flat way of fitting more actions in, like in MMORPGs. It’s both limited and rather annoying. You’ve got a bunch of options to consider simultaneously, and often a bunch of them are on long cooldowns and the actual gameplay rotation is much more straightforward. In my brief experience of playing WoW I found it to be a stunningly cruddy game. How is it that PoE has so many options but is the same simplistic gameplay as Diablo? Why do you keep thinking only in terms of what you’ve seen? I don’t want to copy either PoE or WoW because I believe they both suck.
By synergies between existing skills do you mean a fire skill is on the ground, a tornado skill goes over it, and now you have a fire tornado? I’m not opposed to this sort of thing but it doesn’t do enough for gameplay alone. You have very few skills to combine and there likely would be very little to it.
The system you are describing is how control schemes for fighting games work, except that it’s confusing and muddled and would be awful to play. People have been trying out different ways to make fun games for half a century now. Your idea doesn’t somehow become a new one simply because you want to ignore all the similar things that have been done before and have been refined to a playable state.
Have you tried this system out? Played with it to see how it feels? No. You have made some stuff up in your head that you’re convinced is far better than anything anyone else has ever come up with. But you’ve never designed a game, never worked on playtesting and refining a game, and have literally no idea what you’re talking about.
So you have no idea how PoE works, but you know that it is bad because you didn’t like WoW. Having 12 options all available simultaneously is “limited and rather annoying,” but having 64 options that are only available once every 3rd attack and only if you press the right sequence of keys is a way to not, “limit options because some bozos would short-circuit.”
Here’s my suggestion: apply for a degree in game design or a job in QA, learn how this stuff actually works, play a few more games so you can see what people smarter than you have already figured out about what makes games fun, and then take whatever the core of this idea is that has you so excited and turn it into something a person would actually consider playing.
Ignoring what other people have done successfully doesn’t make your ideas original. What problem are you even trying to solve with this system? Do you even know?
You think literally every mechanic, every feature of both those game sucks? Including the game you haven’t played? You think your system is definitively better than one you’ve never tried because there was a different game you didn’t like?
That could be an example, but synergies don’t have to be physics-based. You could have Earthen Bulwark turn all your projectiles into stones that deal physical damage while it is active. You could have HotA leave behind an earthquake that periodically throws out Steel Grasp attacks around it. Even if you restricted yourself to only allowing each skill to slot one synergy and only came up with 3 possible synergies per skill, you’d have as many options as your system (or more, since this could just as easily apply to all 6 slots).
I love it when the focus becomes the extent of originality. lol Gaming forums suck so much.
Do you know what I have done? I’ve played Diablo. In fact, as soon as I saw a gameplay video and realized that against what I considered to be common sense they did not take any further steps to develop the core of this game I knew this game was likely to be deficient. What I did next was consider how combat could be improved. Immediately the focus became on active rather than passive additions to the game in order to better engage players. It’s true it’s not very intuitive to me that there are people like you who are totally and forever satisfied with very basic, simplistic, and repetitive gameplay and who can only reason or imagine by comparison to something they’ve seen, but I am 100% convinced there are many people who would be interested in a further developed Diablo. The reason why I settled on the idea to introduce more actives into the game I’ve been describing is due to its potential depth and relative ease of use. Without involving many extra buttons multiples of extra skills can be integrated. The mutually exclusive selection adds consequence to decision-making. Obviously you’re not running a jet engine in your head. How do you know what game designers have tried or what works? How is a word like innovation in your head at all? When you’re satisfied with something you yourself describe as mindless how the hell do you have an opinion on what could or could not improve gameplay for others?
facepalm
Lol, that’s what I thought. It’s funny the commonalities you spot on gaming forums. Hey, numbnuts, say Earthen Bulwark does indeed turn all your projectiles into stones that deal physical damage. sO wHaT? Are you referring to Diablo 3 runes? Did you clap like a seal at that idea? Is it a “theorycrafting” thing?
I could picture you being happy with yourself right now. lmao Jesus Christ, dude. All you’re describing is yet another passive “system”. I don’t understand what sort of creatures so many of you are, including your precious game developers and designers, to think in the exact same stupid manner and present it as smart and exciting because it allows you to “theorycraft”. Listen, they could let you equip a full-length action movie, you’re still going to be the same dumb@ss you were before. Do you know why? IT’S BECAUSE YOU AREN’T ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING!!! What in the actual hell is wrong with you people?
Well, that certainly is an advanced qualification for game design.
Except that you are involving many more buttons.
Because the simplicity of the core gameplay is the strength of this genre. I don’t understand why this is so hard for you. I’ve given you a bunch of examples of mechanics that the fans of this game don’t want because they don’t want to have to constantly watch and react to the environment around them. Your suggestion is to add hundreds of new skills to the game (which would take a massive development effort) and a god-awful control scheme and your reasoning for why is that you think it would make the game smarter. It wouldn’t. You don’t have a single example of how this scheme would do anything other than annoy everyone trying to play. Your answer for that is that those people don’t have to use it. So you want a massive development effort to produce a janky system that almost everyone will ignore. But when people point that out, your only response is to say that they are just too dumb to understand your genius. This again shows that you are immature and don’t know what you’re talking about.
Hey kid, say the Earthen Bulwark button turns into a button that launches a ray of stones after you press it. So what? So now if I want to use ray of stones instead of storm strike I can do it every other button press? How does ray of stones help me do something I can’t already do? How does it make the moment-to-moment play of the game less “mindless”?
And the only difference between your system and a passive one is that you want people to enter some button code to get their skills to activate. You aren’t adding depth, only complexity. If you added hundreds of skills to the game but still could only select 6 of them to use at a time, the game would have more depth. Making some convoluted system to allow you to use more of them doesn’t do anything except make it annoying to use those skills.
You know what’s actually way better than your system? The runewords. They add some new condition that you have play around to activate them at the right time.
Now it appears it is you who is denying perspectives that don’t match your own.
From what I recall players didn’t like two things - 1) being unable to respond or react to a challenge 2) having to run multiple defensive skills that took up slots from the precious few the game allows them. The reaction of players was in the context of the restrictive game design, not necessarily about their preference to derp through the game. I have seen many complaints about lack of challenge, pointlessness, what have you. Are you sure you understand what a game is at a very basic level? You seem to have this inflexible idea in your head that a game is supposed to be a mindless power trip, or at least this one, for no other reason than this is what it has always been and it has made enough money being that. And you insist this is what it should always be. I find that pretty strange.
You thought it was dialing a phone number to execute an action. Let’s not pretend you have any idea how it would or could work. I do believe experimentation is essential, particularly on the cheap to test the concept (i.e. not involving you). I never wrote you’re too dumb to understand my genius. What I’ve tried to convey is that you’re too dumb to understand many things well short of genius. I wouldn’t necessarily chalk it up to immaturity as stupidity doesn’t discriminate on age.
See.
Earthen Bulwark is a defensive skill lasting three seconds. One of the two variations of how to implement extra actions I described was using the normal abilities as “springboards” for follow-up actions. One option is “A ‘ray’ of rock shrapnel flies out at rapid intervals dealing damage to the first impacted enemy,” a second is, “The barrier is increased by 50%, which decays over the next 3 seconds,” and a third is, “The rocks impact the ground to stun surrounding enemies for 1.5 seconds.” You have all three of these options available to you to execute mid-combat, but you can execute only one. So you have to choose between damage, survivability, and CC. The idea is in different situations you may want to execute a different option, even to play your way™. Making smarter choices and executing better in more challenging circumstances may make the difference between life and death or how far you get, therein being the reward. You may feel rewarded just playing smarter or in a more variable manner in general. But you need a brain that seeks more than mindlessness first.
For whatever reason you chose to focus on the first option, the rays of rock shrapnel. Ok, as long as you understand that is just one option you actively control mid-combat. You execute a particular first level rune, then you get to a second runeword level. See, we’re two levels deep at this point (which is still fairly shallow), and we’ve got 12 additional “skills” all not even on four of the buttons you constantly use but just three. Here you get an option for your rays to pierce (i.e. longer range), to interrupt enemies behind the first target, or you get more rays dealing greater damage around you. Admittedly these can be subtle differences but depending on implementation and especially how enemy encounters are designed there can be significant differences. That’s what we’re looking for. Giving players more real-time rather than “theorycrafting” options that make a difference and make gameplay more variable. Imo “theorycrafting” goes only so far. It’s ironic how many people freely admit ARPGs are mindless despite the theorycrafting pretension.
throws hands in the air
How trite and predictable. And you wonder why I think you aren’t very smart.
massages forehead
Anyone ever called you a genius? The one thing you demonstrate quite compellingly is that very disparate people can end up playing the same game. My thing is a properly designed game would be able to entertain disparate groups of people. What you’re trying to argue is let’s leave mindlessness alone for the sake of tradition. That’s quite the mindset.
Dude is a troll, your wasting your time here. He thinks this game retained 40% of it’s player base since launch lol. I doubt it’s even 10% given the numbers from all other platforms
And you wonder why I think you aren’t very smart.