[Analysis] Overpower damage

First off, I’m not 100% sure for each stat which affects overpower but from my testing, practically every damage percentage stats doesn’t affect overpower damage, aside from vulnerable damage and the actual overpower damage stat, which creates a major conundrum when it comes to different playstyle and how well they scale at endgame.

This is gonna be a long read so sit tight if you’re brave enough to keep reading and I am very sorry for making it this lengthy but I have to get into the details to truly explain the potential issue at hand. I will also be going at it from the Necromancer point of view since that’s the class I play within the paragon system.

Let’s get started…

The issue explained

Let’s take the most basic style of gameplay: Skill damage combined with critical hits and vulnerability.
You have a total of 3 multipliers being applied before any other multiplier shenanigans from paragon boards, aspects, skills, and what not.

  • The additive damage of stats like Core damage, All damage, Typed damage (physical, cold, etc.), damage against stunned, etc.
  • Vulnerable damage which functions as a multiplier due to its debuff nature
  • Critical damage which functions as a multiplier because duh

So you have 3 numbers multiplying the damage of the ability (which is based off of the attack power provided by the weapon)

When comparing this to Overpower damage, we are looking at something a lot more complex. There is two parts to an overpower attack, the actual hit + the overpower damage.
The actual hit benefits from everything a build focused on critical benefit from, as outlined above, while the overpower damage only benefit from the following:

  • Overpower damage

Only 1 number multiplying the damage of the overpower hit which is based off of the sum of the health and fortified health. For the sake of argument let’s pretend that the base damage provided by health to an overpower hit, before multipliers, scales at the same rate as attack power as you progress in level and gear.

Now, I do not know 100% every stat interaction with overpower, but after doing testing, the only stats I could find benefiting overpower is overpower damage. (Edit: Someone corrected me regarding vulnerable with overpower so I edited the post) Please correct me if I’m wrong here. Critical damage doesn’t benefit overpower damage on a critical hit. (Unsure if it’s intended or not for overpower damage to not benefit from critical damage, easily testable with Blood Mist and Rathma’s Vigor on a necro to see that it receives 0 benefit from critical damage)

The crux of the problem

When investing into overpower damage, you get the benefit of getting extra damage on a overpowered hit while simultaneously getting the negative effect of losing overall damage through investing heavily into overpower rather than other more conventional damage stats. This becomes extremely apparent once you get into the paragon board and spend your points towards overpower damage rather than increasing the damage of your actual hits.

Example of the issue

Using made up numbers, let me describe the problem with formulas, assuming 1 cast of an ability per second, no resource bottleneck, and no special modifiers outside of the actual stats:
Conventional build:
10 000 damage * 5 (sum of all damage increase from paragon/gear) * 2 (vulnerability multiplier) * 2.5 (averaged multiplier from critical strikes (critical damage * critical chance)) = 250 000 DPS
vs
Overpower build:
10 000 damage * 2.5 (sum of all damage increase from paragon/gear) * 2 (vulnerability multiplier) * 1.5 (averaged multiplier from critical strikes (critical damage * critical chance)) + 10 000 overpower damage * 6 (overpower damage multiplier) * 0.3 (ratio of regular hit to overpower hit) = 93 000 DPS

Obviously, the values above aren’t the actual theoritical values an end game build would have, but it serves the purpose of this demonstration.
With the heavy investment in overpower damage, a build using overpower is left with a lot less damage increases as well as less investment into critical hits and damage.
So even with the advantage of having extra damage to work with through the extra damage mechanic of overpower, it simply doesn’t have the same scaling potential because of its lower multipliers.

The 2 for 1 Pizza dilemma

You can skip this pizza section, this is just food for thoughts (literally) but also describe the issue from a real world perspective.

This is very reminescent of the clever way pizzerias make you spend more money for less pizza by offering you a “2 for 1” deal. Having 2 pizzas with a smaller radius to multiply with doesn’t give you as much surface as a larger pizza with a larger radius to multiply with.

Area is equal to π multiplied by the radius to the second power.
A 12-inch pizza is 113.04 square inches while a 18-inch pizza is about 254 square inches.
The way pizzeria tricks your brain is by selling you the 2 12-inch pizza for the same price as an 18-inch pizza.

This is how powerful multipliers are. The less is more paradox.

The mechanical advantage of Overpower

This however can be offset with clever manipulation of game mechanics through the use of multi-hits such as the Blood Surge aspect that echo the ability and doubles up on the overpower while ignoring the damage reduction from the aspect, or the triple hit blood wave from its respective aspect, or mechanically forcing an overpower on an ability that does a lot of smaller hits such as Rathma’s Vigor combined with Blood Mist. The Deathspeaker’s Pendant unique amulet is also a very good example of clever use of overpower, providing upwards to 14 hits (if stars align) of overpower damage on a single overpowered cast. These can serve as an extra multiplier on your overpower damage since overpower damage isn’t based on the actual ability damage but on your health + fortified health plus, correct me if I’m wrong here, a hidden increase/reduction depending on the ability triggering the overpower

You can see Deathspeaker’s Pendant in action here: https://i.imgur.com/seCXJL9.mp4

The question is… are those clever mechanics enough to offset the massive investment required for overpower? As it stands… I personally do not believe it actually does.
The game is fairly new still, damage simulations aren’t fully developped yet to really tell if the issue is there or not and which between conventional and overpower build would actually come on top, but from what we already know of end game builds, overpower doesn’t seem to be able to cut it despite the potential behind the mechanic, even with something as impressive as Deathspeaker’s Pendant.

Final thoughts

I do not have a solution to propose for this as I do not know whether it is actually a problem or not, yet.
I would like to say however that the main issue overpower builds are probably facing is the lack of scaling towards the ratio of regular hits to overpower hits. Regular builds do not face this problem since every aspect of their damage scales for them. For overpower builds you don’t get more overpowers at level 100 than you do at level 30 on a per-cast basis.

Perhaps changing how overpower build-up for abilities/skills to a number value that can be scaled through a stat would be a good compromise?
Taking Blood surge as an example, it could be made to provide 20 charges toward and overpowered blood surge and when at 100+ charges, consume 100 charges to force an overpower. A utility affix on gear providing X% increase to overpower build-up could increase the rate at which those charges are gained, so say you’d have 50% increase to overpower build-up, you would gain 30 charges instead of the base 20 charges.
Rathma’s vigor (or Druid’s pulverize) could grant X charge per second which would scale on this new overpower build-up affix.

Thank you for reading.

10 Likes

Vuln doesnt work on overpower

1 Like

You’re correct.

Which makes overpower damage really bad.
Edited the original post to correct that.

1 Like

They should’ve just made all these damage % multipliers additive tbh, then the math to balance things becomes fairly simple. Everything would just be base damage, uptime and multiplier. No concerns about unforeseen impacts on other builds

Also big additive numbers are more intuitively impressive than multiplying smaller numbers together(which is not shown to the player).

3 Likes

Eh someone needs to actually test a full endgame build. There’s some things you’re missing here.

  1. OP base damage is not the same as a regular skill. A regular skill has weapon damage multiplied by skill %. OP has HP + Fortify + Barrier multiplied by hidden OP multiplier which means in reality the base damage of OP hits when scaled at endgame is going to be VERY high. Remember you gain max HP every level, a level 100 OP necro is going to have like 20k max HP which gives you like 56000 base damage with Temerity, something you can’t get anywhere near with weapon damage.

2.5) Also due to above, your build involves stacking a ton of defenses and stats and you can ignore a lot of damage mods in favor of defense, which makes you super tanky while getting damage.

  1. A bunch of glyphs and stuff got nerfed making vuln/crit damage worse than it was before, makes OP more competitive.

  2. There’s a massive multiplier necro has access to with the blood surge minion amulet. Was confirmed that it’s not minions casting blood surge, it’s just copies of your surge at the location of the minions. This means you can get a huge multi with like 12-14 minions. Unsure if Blood Bathed Aspect works with it.

  3. OP has some bugged interactions and should actually be better when those get fixed (necro at least).

Additional stuff:

  • Unsure if Int affects OP damage or just Willpower, if both work then stacking stats is pretty good and paragon gives even more power.
  • Unsure if some aspects actually do affect OP that are generic damage, haven’t tested yet. Also glyph secondaries and some other things need to be tested.
  • Skill tree damage mods that don’t specify overpower do affect overpower damage if they affect blood surge. I use Coalesced Blood and Amplify Damage. Imperfectly Balanced works as well but I’m not using it.
  • Attack Speed is very strong with OP necro because they have one of the craziest aspects available with Rathma’s Chosen. With good essence sustain you can absolutely blast enemies.
  • Natural overpower seems to trigger far more than 3%. I don’t know if it rolls 3% per enemy and then applies to the whole skill, or if it rolls once per hit in surge and then applies to the whole skill, but this adds a lot.
  • Skill rank does not affect OP damage, so you can leave Blood Surge at 1/5 and ignore rank of blood surge mods.
1 Like

I wasn’t aware barrier affected overpower damage, would be nice if they had that in the overpower tooltip.
It certainly helps overpower do more damage but… even then, increasing the base damage doesn’t make up for the loss of multipliers.
Even if you get 50000 base damage on your overpower hit, even a 10000 damage hit is gonna do way more when you multiply it with vulnerable damage and crit damage.

I’d be interested in seeing some damage sims for it though, maybe it’s enough, but I’m skeptical it will be, even with the nerfed glyphs.

Blood bathed aspect doesn’t work with Deathspeaker’s pendant unfortunately, only get 1 mini nova.
I did mention Deathspeaker’s pendant, it’s not really a multiplier but it kinda works like one because it’s gives you more hits, although it is not very reliable outside of bosses because of how unreliable minions are, you also lose access to the sacrficie bonus that basically doubles your overpower damage stats and the mini-novas are extremely small and don’t hit the whole screen like an overpower Blood Surge does, so it’s a trade-off to consider but not as broken as it would appear.

Ok but the highest weapon damage weapons have nowhere near 10000 damage…

We need to see someone playing the build with actual endgame gear/paragon to tell how it actually is (or have some sim).

I think Bloodbath and Untimely Death being fixed will be huge for OP necro though, missing so much damage because of those being bugged.

Also removing the hit cap on blood mist would help a lot, it only hits 10 times atm so it just stops doing damage halfway through if you have high attack speed.

With the main stat skill damage (which acts as a separate multiplier), it definitely reaches over 10000 attack power at end game.
I’m sitting at 7190 attack power at level 71 without even trying to stack intelligence.
A rank 7 blood surge is 80% damage on the nova, so even when I don’t build for it, I’m already at over 5k damage on the ability before the other multipliers.

Attack power isn’t a number used in the damage formula, it’s some weird calculation they make to throw a number on your sheet, it doesn’t mean anything.

It would be doing 80% of the weapon damage of your weapon (or both added if dual wielding). The range of like 800 - 1200 or w/e it is idk.

Mmmh, well, weapon DPS multiplied by main stat skill damage can definitely reach at least 5k. I’ve got 2351 DPS on my weapon and 65% skill damage without stacking intelligence so it’s already close to 4k.

I guess we’ll see when people get there.

I’m still skeptical overpower can compete. Multipliers just do so much it would requires a massive amount of base damage from an overpower hit to compete and even then, have to consider the part where you don’t overpower every hit while you can definitely crit every other hit.

Ok but then we add Willpower to Overpower (which is a higher number btw)…

We’ll have to see, but I expect Overpower to be solid for everything in the game except for very high NM which is basically an unbalanced who cares where the mobs 1shot everyone anyways.

Also OP seems like a good pvp build because you just walk around with your 5 stack surge + 15 stacks of Rathma’s Vigor and then if someone initiates on you you can press 1 button and go immune while dealing millions of damage to them, and when it’s over right click and do the same damage again.

Willpower extra overpower damage isn’t multiplicative like the main stat is.
It’s the equivalent of having % overpower on gear.
Main stats is straight up just a multiplier separate from other multipliers like core/close/distant/whatever damage

have you tested that?

You can see it on the stats sheet by taking a willpower node.
Unless the entire stat sheet is just a lie.

Ok yeah, I can see that from how it works on the sheet.

Have you checked if int affects overpower damage though?

EDIT: Wait no, I think willpower is additive onto the base 50% and that is a unique multiplier, that math checks out.

+71.5 from WIL = 424.4 on sheet, +48 from WIl = 380.6 on sheet

2.215 / 1.98 is very close to 424.4 / 380.6

I’m 90% sure main stat doesn’t affect overpower, testing with blood mist and 189 intelligence, at full health and fortify and barrier, both with and without the 189 int did 7.5k damage a tick.

The willpower is additive, 5 willpower gives me 1.3% overpower damage, and I go from 331.0 to 332.3 respectively without and with the 5 willpower.

So why is it that with my sheet going from 48 to 71.5 willpower OP damage sends my toal % from 380.6 to 424.4? That’s 43.8 not 23.5.

Are you using sacrifice bonus for overpower? Cause that’s a multiplier to overpower damage.

My simple minded perspective on Overpower is that you want this stat if you have very high attack speed with a fast attacking weapon.

I assumed overpower procs are 3%(not adjustable) and the only thing that modifies that dmg is affixes that specifically add to over power damage. OP damage can crit and the color of the numbers is different.

I’m just going off the tooltip that explains overpower during loading screens. I know nothing.