Wudijos idea optimizing current Paragon system

5/13/21 he published this YouTube video with a pretty indepth explanation on some very reasonable, probably simple to implement, and atleast developer noteworthy in my opinion, edits to the current paragon system.

I haven’t found this posted in any forum threads yet but it’s something I can really get behind, plus a lot of people I’m assuming would as well.

This is a straight up copy and paste of his TL:DW to his video that I take no credit of, just want to share and get the word out.
[

TL;DW Paragon Rework Concept Basic ideas:

  • Works similar to current Paragon system (same xp values, spending points, resetting, etc.)
  • 5th category added (Core, Offense, Defense, Utility, Specialization)
  • Mainstat scaling revamped (see below)
  • More choices added to each category but only 250 points can be spent on each

----- Core (choose 5 out of 9, 50 points to max out each) = total 250 points

  • 25% Movement Speed
  • Maximum Resource
  • 10% Increased effect of non-legendary gems
  • 10% Block Chance
  • 50% Crowd Control reduction
  • 10% chance to spawn a Health Globe on attack (10 sec cooldown)
  • 5% chance to spawn a Nephalem Glory orb on attack (15 sec cooldown) * 25% chance to Slow on Hit
  • 10% chance to Stun on Hit

Only active after reaching paragon 1250:

  • 2500 Mainstat (250 points unlocks the next step) = 10 per point
  • 2000 Mainstat (250 points …) = 8 per point
  • 1500 Mainstat (250 points …) = 6 per point
  • Total mainstat between P1250 and P2000 = 6000
  • Reaching P2000 allows you to choose a 5th passive
  • Infinite Mainstat starting at P2000 = 2 per point
  • No more Vitality in Core

----- Offense (choose 5 out of 10, 50 points to max out each) = total 250 points

  • 10% AS
  • 10% CDR
  • 5% CHC
  • 50% CHD
  • 20% Elite Damage
  • 25% Area Damage
  • 40% Damage against Bosses
  • 10% Resources Generated
  • 150% Noncritical Damage Increase * Enemies hit take 0.25% increased damage from further attacks

----- Defense (choose 5 out of 10, 50 points to max out each) = total 250 points

  • 25% Armor
  • 250 All Res
  • 1250 Vitality
  • 15% Reduced Damage from Elites
  • 15% Melee Damage Reduction
  • 15% Ranged Damage Reduction
  • 10% Non-Physical Damage Reduction
  • 10% Physical Damage Reduction
  • 20% Reduced damage taken while below 30% life
  • 10% Dodge Chance

----- Utility (choose 5 out of 10, 50 points to max out each) = total 250 points

  • 50% Gold Find
  • 5 yards Globe Pickup Radius
  • 10000 Life per Hit
  • 16000 Life Regeneration
  • 20000 Life per Kill
  • 10% RCR
  • 10% Increased duration of Shrines & Pylons
  • 25000 Thorns
  • Every 10 seconds, gain a shield for 20% of your total Life
  • 2.5 yards Auto-pickup of crafting Materials

----- Specialization (choose 5 out of 10, 50 points to max out each) = total 250 points

  • Damage is increased by 10% against targets 25 yards or more away from you
  • Damage is increased by 10% against targets within 15 yards of you * Damage is increased by 15% against targets that are at least 5 yards away from other enemies
  • Damage is increased by 20% against Crowd Controlled enemies (only hard-CC)
  • Consecutive critical hits against the same enemy deal 10% increased damage
  • Enemies that hit you once will deal 10% less damage to you with future attacks
  • The first time an enemy hits you, you take 20% less damage
  • Picking up a Health Globe increases your damage done by 2% for 15 seconds, stacking up to 5 times
  • Critical Hit Chance against enemies above 90% life is increased by 15%
  • 5% chance to repeat an attack for free (triggered without character animation). ]
16 Likes

Why don’t you give a brief abstract so we can decide if we want to invest 20 minutes in a video? I can skim an article. Its not as easy to skim a video.

6 Likes

Just seeing the offensive stats actually gives me pause and makes me think, “There’s a lot of good stats here.”

EDIT: Though the consecutive crits seems extremely overpowered. Do a zero crit build and single out a target, this would be especially useful against the RG. If the RG doesn’t summon adds, it will take 5x damage in a few seconds. Even additive mind you. If it were multiplicative, it would effectively triple the speed. Essentially, no crit builds would be the meta 100%.

1 Like

Yeah, a few of the options look like they could use some finessing, which I’m sure (on the videos page) he would gladly love to hear ideas so he can edit them, and be the much more heard voice of the subject for us. I just think this direction for paragons is a great way to head to keep D3 player numbers from dwindling the way they currently are, especially with D4 coming slowly but surely

The paragon system is perfect as it is. It rewards players who actually play the game with a very small buff which is how it should be. Exp needed for paragon is not linear and is increasingly more difficult to obtain the higher level you are.

The people complaining are ignorant and noobs who dont even play the game very often anyway so their opinion does not matter. They are either ignorant of the facts or they are just entitled to the point that they think they deserve all the small buffs that high paragon players have without putting in any time or effort.

Fact number 1.
Paragon already has a hard cap and suffers from major diminishing returns.

For instance, the experience required to level

from 1000 to 1001 = 47 BILLION exp for one level
from 3000 to 3001 = 401 BILLION exp for one level

From level 0 to 1000 = 10 TRILLION EXP
From level 0 to 3000 = 388 TRILLION EXP

That means you need several times more experience at high paragon to achieve the next level. In this case, at paragon 3000, you need 8 times more experience than someone at paragon 1000. To reach level 3000, you need to level from paragon 1 to 1000 about 38 times.

Fact number 2.
Paragon main stat buff also suffers from diminishing returns. Each level only provides 5 main stat which becomes increasingly worthless the more main stat and higher paragon level you have.

Main stat for your class is a damage multiplier and in its own category. For instance, you have 25k main stat. If you add 2,500 mainstat, that would only be about a 10% damage increase. To get those 2,500 points, you need to level 500 additional paragon and as shown in the examples above, for that 500 paragon, you would need much more experience than those at lower paragon do and it becomes much harder and time consuming to level at higher paragon with the hard cap.

Fact number 3.
Wudijo is a bottor and plays with bottors all day. He was literally banned for botting. However, he is now a “content creator and twitch streamer” so he needs to build a positive image with the masses, which is why he is agreeing with the low paragon community and masses. He is essentially ignoring the paragon mechanics that he should already know so he can increase his reputation.

In conclusion,

The paragon system is perfect as it is. It rewards players who actually play the game with a very small buff which is how it should be. Exp needed for paragon is not linear and is increasingly more difficult to obtain the higher level you are. It is already hard capped and the people at high paragon worked several times more than the complainers here and deserve all of that minor buff that they rightfully earned.

There does not need to be talent trees and niche powers added to the paragon attribute system. That is what kanji’s cube and set bonuses is for. There has been too much power added this this game already to the point people are facerolling gr 150s.

7 Likes

This would be a VERY nice change welcomed to D3 from the community. I absolutely love the amount of different customization and with the nerf to paragons, basically all of these concepts should be within reason. I REALLY hope that for the D3 community, we can get them to do something like this!

I personally haven’t been at the higher end, but it is NOT perfect. Being able to effectively ditch defensive stats/mainstats BECAUSE your mainstat is SO HIGH, making your damage even higher because your toughness is being 2-3x higher then the enemies are outputting each level. That 1 tier will eventually turn into around 2 on average once you’re strong enough. You’ve definitely gotten a higher paragon then I ever have, but it sounds like you only enjoy it because you’ve been a higher paragon. Think about it this way, being 10k paragon with this version would effectively make it to where you have 16k mainstat higher then a 2k paragon as opposed to 40k. That is a significant change. I’ve seen profiles with 11m DPS unbuffed WHILE REMOVING all jewelry. How is that not absurd to you?

Not trying to attack you, but it definitely needs a revamp.

1 Like

Ok, lets take your exact example.
0-10000 paragon is 16.5 quadrillion or 16,500 trillion exp
0-2000 paragon is 119 trillion

That means to reach level 10,000 , you need to level from paragon 0-2000 about 138 times.
Even with 40k extra main stat that is only 100% more damage than someone at paragon 2000. If a guy is crazy enough to grind to 10,000 or level to paragon 2000 about 138 times then he deserves all of that damage bonus.

Secondly, sheet damage is fake damage and the calculations are not accurate since it rates some stats more than others if it even calculates it at all.

1 Like

2x damage, PLUS added damage xxx-xxx, remove mainstat for AD/CC/CD/CDR etc etc. You can replace mainstat at that point. Effectively, if you wanted to, you could remove mainstat from every item just to get more damge. Which would in turn create more then 2x damage. To top it off, 40k mainstat vs 16k is a huge difference in toughness. Let’s pretend 1k mainstat is 5% toughness. That’s a difference of 200% toughness vs 80% toughness. Which is a difference of roughly 7 grift levels of defense. Assuming that’s the case. Either way, it’s around 3x more defensive currently then it should be.

EDIT: My math was wrong. Its 46k mainstat currently.

ONE MORE EDIT. The possibility/fact that he botted before, but now is not botting, effectively proves the opposite of the argument that the paragon system is good the way it is.

2 Likes

Yes, and if a guy is crazy enough to grind to level 10,000 or level to paragon 2000 around 138 times, then he deserves all of that buff. That is a lot of time and effort grinding from 1-2000 about 138 times and should not be discounted just because lower paragon people feel entitled to it for free.

If you also want the same buff, then feel free to grind an additional 8000 paragon and put in the same time and effort the other guy did which is to level from paragon 1 to 2000 about 137 more times.

2 Likes

Certainly much better than the current system.
It fixes the problem of being able to get everything.
It does not fix the endless power problem, but at least it reduces the scaling. Should be reduced further though.

Sure, it fixes the problem of having to work to get something.
Like, why shouldn’t you have same damage/defense as the guy who spends 10x or 100x more time than you at the game?
Yes, much better system.

1 Like

Just because someone washes dishes for 10 years and the one who washes dishes for 1 year, does not mean that the 10yr is better at washing dishes. The whole point is a leaderboard that is tilted HARD into the favor of someone who does nothing BUT play this game, a big chunk of which believe that they HAVE TO BOT to get that edge. If someone didn’t feel it was required, you’d still have bots, but there would certainly be less. I’d say besides monetary reasons, people who bot are either lazy/don’t have the time do spend. The latter half would stop botting if it didn’t require 100x more time then they have to actually play if they want SOME sort of ability to compete.

Imagine saying in street fighter, since person A played longer then person B, then person A deserves to have 3x health pool then person B. Nothing to do with skill, timing, ability etc. It’s a shortsighted and honestly stupid way of thinking.

4 Likes

This is a grinding game by definition. You get rewarded for playing it by getting gear, damage, toughness. So whining that somebody who grinds more gets more - that’s stupid way of thinking.
And why would a casual player worry about leaderboards? He could just play challenge rift, there he can find “casual” builds. But even there it’s too hard to get to top 10 or even top 100, isn’t it? Why could that be?

This is a ARPG. You put in more time and effort building up your avatar and killing monsters, you get more reward.

Well since you have something against dishwashers, how about doctors? Programmers? Security guards? Mechanics or etc?

If they spent 138 times more time and effort than you did in their field and 10 additional years of learning medical texts, writing code, and experience in use of force techniques, do they deserve to earn more money?

Or are you just going to ask the government, or in this case Blizzard, to make all income equal ? Because thats what you’re asking for. A 10k paragon guy would probably have to spend like a decade of playing this game, and grinding nonstop to earn that and would have to level from 0-2000 about 138 times. They deserve that damage buff especially from all the diminishing returns that they had to grind through to get it.

2 Likes

For the first read seems abit too complex. And thinking not every character will have specialized in block chance, benefits from thorns or need crowd control reduction; I think the choices can be filtered easily. His offered system may work in full throttle only if passive abilities of current classes have a re-work to include some specialization.

From a result oriented stand point, this is abit unnecessary to allow each class to have same access to the same tree.
If I want to bear a shield as a Demon Hunter or Wizard even 10% block chance won’t do anything for my class when my passives do not support the gameplay. If I have near permanent crowd control impunity from Vengeance or WotB, reduced crowd control duration won’t do anything for my class again. If I don’t have a Set that offer overall damage increase, Neph Glory chance only cause unnecessary calculations that deal very minuscule damage when it occured.

Let’s be honest though his system has no visual flaws and plans on giving power to the character instead of item oriented power seek. The issue is a practical one here, not every class would benefit from offered bonuses unless Blizzard also changes their passive abilities.
The performance of the build is the goading factor here for player to even try building towards a specialization and class fantasy stand point of endurance perks for splitting glass cannons from tanks, stops the practical appliance.

In short, either this paragon tree must be trimmed down for every different class else each class must get different passive abilities. Even then this greatly shortens the time for optimization; which I can not decide if imbalanced or not. Offered stat dumps of this system simply offers abit too much and cause so much power creep to the point of low underdog builds can do GR150 solo.

The paragon system is fine as it is strictly as a general attribute system. He is proposing is massive power spikes to the game with extra character skills, gem and cube powers.

That is not needed since this game already has too much power spike and some of those abilities are already in the game in the form of gems or abilities or cube powers. If you want more power, just ask blizzard to allow for extra kanji cube slots or extra character passive talents slots which serves the same purpose of adding more unneed power spikes to this game.

1 Like

Calling Wudijo a botter is defamatory.

I don’t know if anyone mentioned it but capping vitality isn’t a good idea. That is one that can be left alone. I have seen players with high paragon around 7k-11k dropping vitality from gear and getting all resists or some other defensive stat.

Plus Hardcore using vitality more than non hardcore. That is the main reason why I don’t like it. Others here can say what they know as far as math and anything that maybe OP’d.

3 Likes

This is here because I felt it needed to be separate from my other reply.

The way I would revamp paragon if Blizz would be willing the spend the money. I would change it where there would be no hard caps except on Move Speed. The rest would be controlled by soft caps with diminishing returns. Think of City of Heroes diminishing returns for the amount of buff from enhancements on their powers that was called Enhancement Diversification (ED).

ED in City of Heroes greatly diminished the value of buff you got after slotting three of the same type of enhancements. Say you slotted 4 damage enhancements of the same type. The fourth one would be greatly diminished to around 5% instead of 33.33% for a single origin damage enhancement.

Next I would add more stats similar to what he done. Then for my fifth category I would add 6 active skills and 3 passive skills. This way Blizz could at least cut the crazy damage multipliers from the sets and maybe legendaries by half. Giving half of that to the player. Yes even the fifth tab would have diminishing returns to balance things out.