Why Diablo 2 Itemization Is still the best 20 years later. A Diablo franchise comparison

Hey everyone, let me just start by saying this will be a pretty long post, I cut out most of it and decided to only post my section on itemization to maybe bring some light onto what made Diablo 2 so good. I’m passionate on the ARPG genre but I’ve been annoyed lately because I keep reading people post or say how diablo 4 will be a mix of diablo 2 and diablo 3 and that simply isn’t even close to being true. I think most people don’t really understand what makes an ARPG have good itemization and why it was so good in Diablo 2, just adding an attribute system to D4 isn’t even remotely enough to be compared to Diablo 2 because the reason the game had good mechanics was how everything was implemented together as a WHOLE. The core game was different. Itemization alone isn’t going to fix items if the rest of the game isn’t effected by it (like monsters, difficulty, etc). This may seem like a hate thread towards D3/D4 but I promise It’s not, I’m just taking comparisons at the start and putting it all together to try to explain why D2 Itemization is vastly superior IMO.

I’m going to use a duel wield Barbarian as an example for both games and compare the stats the build would use and explain why you would use them, and go into more detail why the design was done well later.
In Diablo 2 you had these useful stats for that specific character/build :

Attack rating : If you were any kind of physical build and you lacked attack rating you would find your self missing A LOT of your attacks. It was a very
important stat that helped your damage by limiting how often you missed. But, was also wasted if you had too much.
Max or Min Damage : DAMAGE
% Damage : DAMAGE
Crushing Blow : DMG based on enemy mob life (very strong on bosses).
Open Wounds : Causes bleeding to target.
Deadly Strike : Grants the attack double damage (a crit basically).
Whenever you had an item that gave one of the 3 stats above it was always given as a % chance to occur on your attack. You can get 100% chance if you wanted to.
Life Leech : Theres % Life leech, life on hit, life on kill. The standard. Not usable on any casters only Physical.
Mana Leech : specific moobs in d2 can drain your mana to zero in seconds so mana leech was always useful.
Faster hit recovery (FHR) : A fundamentally important stat for everyone. If you had 0 FHR on any class you will get stun locked easily and die.
Defense - If you had low defense, physical attacks will take half your life from a white mob. Useful no matter what class.
Life - Every class needed to stack life.
Res + Max Res - If you didn’t have Max res in Hell in D2 you were a walking corpse waiting to flop. But in Diablo 2 you can extend how much your max res caps at. Being even more useful.
Absorb - Absorbs damage from a specific element, taking reduced elemental damage from that specific element.
FRW - Gotta run fast.
Chance on hit x - Chance for your attacks to do X, Ushually to cast a skill that your class normally wouldn’t have access to. For example, “25% chance to cast lvl 28 Glacial Spike on attack” Useful to add effects such as slow/freeze and its badass.
Chance on striking x - The same thing as above except cast when you’re struck by an attack.
Attack speed - In D2 there are a couple ways to increase your attack speed but for this example attack speed is hard locked into the BASE of the item.
Ethereal - Renders your item unable to be repaired (so it will break eventually) but greatly increases base damage. (more on this later)
Sockets.
There are actually more stats then above, but let’s keep this on one page yea?

In Diablo 3 :
Strength - just stack more damage
DPS - just get the biggest number, more damage
Crit chance - just stack more damage
Crit damage - just stack more damage
Attack speed - just stack more damage
Life per hit/leech - your main defense stat so you can do more damage
Vit - stack more hp but it wont matter because you have insane leech anyway
Socket - more damage or defenses
Resource cost - spam more freely
X effect - Adds an effect to your skills that changes the way its used. Or a proc for more damage.

Keep the above in mind for the rest of the post.

First and foremost It’s important to understand how BREAKPOINTS work In Diablo 2. Breakpoints work by instead of giving you a % increase in attack speed (like how it works in D3) instead you need to hit specific # of FHR before you actually gain a boost. For example, The barbs FHR breakpoints are :
0%, 7%, 15%, 27%, 48%, 86%, 200%. So if you had 65% total faster hit recovery on your gear you would have the 5th breakpoint (being 48%). Important stats like FHR, Attack speed, block rate and Cast rate work around breakpoints. Why is this important? Because every class benefits from the same stat making it a universally useful stat but at the same time there’s no real need to stack the crap out of it. You can pick to go with the 4th breakpoint or the 5th, or even go for the last one. It’s all up to you and how you can be flexible with your gear. If you wanted you can sacrifice some damage on your sorc to cast faster. Now, I understand Breakpoints might seem like an outdated mechanic but the point is you had choices for your character in stats that weren’t just DAMAGE and are not worth stacking like crazy. In diablo 3 the only stat that was useful on everyone was Vit. And lets be honest, defense is a dog poop stat since they gave some classes flat % DR (which is a prime example of terrible and lazy game design btw). Breakpoints were essential for FEELING character progression, there’s a reason In diablo 2 (and path of exile) you feel super sloppy and slow at Level 1. IT’S ALMOST LIKE THAT’S THE POINT OF AN ARPG TO PROGRESS. In diablo 3 at level 1 you had smooth animations and I honestly still cannot tell a difference between a lvl 1 and max level character in D3, you FEEL zero progression to your character.

In D2 Attack speed breakpoints change depending on the BASE ITEM of your main hand weapon (and some other factors). It looks like they are doing something similar in Diablo 4 with the most recent update, weapons have “Very slow attack speed” or “fast attack speed” text instead of % AS like they did in Diablo 2. That is a very good change IMO moving away from every stat being a % gain is a huge plus. In diablo 3 more is ALWAYS BETTER. Having every stat providing a % gain to your character provides zero choice, is a lazy way to design the game and is just flat out boring. You need to have diminishing returns somewhere or the game will turn into STACK FEST like Diablo 3 is.

Why would you ever make a Barbarian twice in Diablo 3? You wouldn’t.
The biggest choice you can make in D2 around your character is deciding what you want your character to excel at. Boss killing? Basic mob farming? Magic find? Just a play through? Deciding what you want your character to excel at will change what stats you value more for your character. This simply does not exist in Diablo 3 in any depth because everyone can do everything well, there’s zero consequences for any choices. The reason this is important because it adds value to specific stats for some players while being completely useless to others. Stats like Magic find, Open wounds, Crushing blow, Critical Strike, chance on striking, def, Absorb %.

Notice how there’s a balance between stats? In diablo 3 you simply get the bigger number no matter what.

One of the best features in D2 IMO is making random white items have value and be useful, and some specifics being really rare. A plain white item can be worth more then your entire character. Let that sink in for a second. I’m sure you all heard about “Runewords” by now but without going into detail these are basically “Crafted items”. Every runeword needs a base first in which you can turn into a runeword. For runewords to work they need to be in a specific base and have a specific number of sockets. A white item can only roll a few stats. Ethereal, Sockets, and Superior. Ethereal (eth) gives armor more defense while being unable to be repaired, and gives more base damage while being unable to be repaired. Superior can also roll additional def or damage which caps at 15%. Catching on yet? Since runewords were very strong getting a good base is very important, as important as the final item itself. Some runewords also give the “Indestructable” stat which takes away Etherals negative property. Making a top tier runeword weapon In one base in some cases provide more then double damage in another base. The only other ARPG that made white items useful was Path of Exile. It blows my mind how more games aren’t designing their items similarly. This adds value to trading, it adds value to white items aka clutter, it adds more choice for the player. Removing white items in general or just making it drop for no reason is just lazy and pointless.

Uniques, Legendarys, Class specific items.
I’ve heard a lot about people saying how class specific items are bad and I completely disagree. I think the devs of D2 shaped all itemization around class-specific items and here’s why.
Sorcs had wands (weps), Barbs and Druids and helms, Paladins had shields etc… The specific class items were only locked to one type and it didn’t mean you HAD to use them either, and they were locked to one of the 4 main slots (helm, chest, wep, offhand) because the items were designed like this, the devs designed items in the other slots (boots, jewelry, belt, gloves) to be more usable and open for almost everyone. Almost every unique glove belt ring or boots in the game can be used on ANY CLASS IN SOMEWAY SHAPE OR FORM. The only real difference would be if you were a caster or physical or If you prioritized magic find, res, defenses, DR, FRW, FHR etc the list goes on. Making these slots more customizable and you can tailor them around your other items.

In diablo 2 a unique ring… let’s use “ravenfrost” for example can be used for EVERY CLASS. It’s useful for everybody defensively (and offensively for some), but for the legendary items in Diablo 4 (from what I saw in the update) they seemed like they were designed for one class in mind without having any restriction regardless to what item slot it was. That is my biggest problem with Itemization. It’s like they are giving the illusion of customization by designed the items for what THEY intend for us to use it for. In diablo 2 there are builds that can be completely designed around one single stat from an item (for example +1 whirlwind. Yes, this one stat gives any class wearing it the ability to use whirlwind).

At first the idea of items giving you unique bonuses. Let’s use “boots of the chilling frost” for example : “your chill effects will trigger freeze 25% faster but you deal 30% less damage” seems interesting because it changes your playstyle a bit but at the same time It makes the item entirely specific. Only usable for one class, and one build (which is fine as long as every legendary in the game isn’t like this). They just seem entirely underwhelming and super niche. I think it’s better game design keeping bonuses like that tied to your character and making items stats more vastly usable.

End Game
Diablo 2 having better end game is because of how the game was community driven and designed around multiplayer, how difficult it was to level, how rare items were, thus giving value to trading making it take time to actually finish your character. This is the entire point of my post, everything should matter and be relevant. When your character is finish you had that “show off” factor and can showcase it in PVP. This is what this “end game” you speak of should be the center of in any LIVING BREATHING ARPG (Path of Exile is a perfect example). In diablo 3 none of that matters at all … but yes there’s more to do technically than diablo 2 with rifts, but you gear 100x faster and it just leads to no where. However this doesn’t mean things can improve because let’s be honest online games have changed overtime. I have no doubt blizzard can create good end game but if the whole idea of meaningfulness isn’t there then it won’t be a reason alone for players to stay.

Rarity.
I’m going to keep this one brief. Items are too common in Diablo 3. Period. Make legendary more rare in D4 by a large margin (atleast 5x) or at least add something that’s super rare that’s desired by everyone. I’ve played Diablo 2 for 20 years and I still haven’t found a single Zod rune. Maybe one day.

I understand I’m probably not the target audience for this franchise anymore but I wanted to maybe help shine a light on some players who wonder why everyone loved Diablo 2 so much.

TLDR : Doesn’t matter because you D3 fans are in heavy denial and will miss the entire point of the post. Diablo 3 was the biggest let down in the ARPG genre because they completely went their own route for it. They turned it into a game for cow clickers and you are all surprised they released a MOBILE diablo game? Diablo 3 is literally aimed for gamers like that. It doesn’t make it a bad game just different compared to other ARPGs and heavily more casual, and lacking any kind of depth (which is why in this post I pointed out all the depth in itemization) There is no disagreeing or agreeing with this It. It’s fact and you’d be completely in denial if you think otherwise. It was blizzard’s intention from the start, and with Diablo 4 it’s clear they don’t want to do that again… they want to make it somewhere between then two. They see it, we see it, why can’t you?

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You may yet be. Have a look at the latest D4 blog.

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While you made some good points, it wouldn’t do you a favor if you purposely framed your post in bias against D3 ignoring some of its stats that it does have, yet you decide to omit. Things like res and phys res are important in D3 as well, and they are present. Of course area damage%, movement speed, bleed (though useless) and cooldown reduction are present in D3, you omit as well. IDK what you meant by insane leech in D3. It’s annoying to read when you just say “just stack more damage” for D3 like attack speed when IT’S THE SAME EXACT THING for Diablo 2 as well, I don’t even know what you’re arguing there. Also there are breakpoints as well in Diablo 3.

There are obvious things D2 did better, but there’s no need to exaggerate or undermine things in favor of your argument.

Also you stack vit in D2 as well, are you kidding me. You fill other stats to meet gear requirement, and then you just dump the rest in vit. Is that a good system in your eyes? Also high plevel intel based classes like wizards socket ruby gems for strength that gives armor, so you’re wrong on that front, vit is not the only base stat that is useful for everyone.

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Every build in D3 has 5+ buffs, including from sets and legendaries.

D2 had many knobs to turn, but many of those knobs did little. Critical hit, for instance, did disappointingly little. Furthermore there was no diversity of items, with an elite group of mostly runewords being BIS for multiple characters.

Let it go. D2 was a great but flawed and dated game. Its itemization was cool but stagnant, and its endgame none existent.

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They should take a look at Diablo 2 for itemization. It’s just superior.
Then add those new “Skill Augmentations” on Legendary items.

You could have the best of both words if you merged them.
Just make sure every stat makes a difference in the end.

Critical hit could be rebalanced to be more effective.
There’s only so many affixes you can really add to a game.
It’s all based on variables/parameters within the code.

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You mention D2’s breakpoints but fail to mention the parallel breakpoints in D3, e.g., APS breakpoints, CDR breakpoints, and Resource breakpoints all of which play a critical role in optimizing a build.

Also, you mention Absorb affix for D2 but omit Area Damage, CDR, Elite Damage Reduction (EDR), Ranged Damage Reduction (RDR), Pickup Radius, Health Globe Bonus. (If you don’t see the value of pickup radius and Health Globe bonus on gear then you have a lot to learn about D3.)

Try looking looking at both games with a more objective lense and try to understand both before making all sorts of conclusions.

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D2 had lots and lots of mostly worthless skills, stats, and items. A mile wide and an inch deep. D3 has plenty of worthless skills and items, but there aren’t any worthless stats.

Neither game is a pinnacle of anything accept nostalgia and personal biases.

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On the topic of breakpoints the way that Diablo 2 did them was absolutely terrible. The only reason I’d give Diablo 2 a pass on it is because it’s a byproduct of how the game engine worked at the time but it’s not something that should happen today.

If we look at FHR on the Assassin that I had back in the day having +86% FHR is exactly the same as having 199% FHR. Since the game’s engine can’t reduce your hit recovery animation by less than 1 frame, the stat literally does nothing for all those values between breakpoints.

Which is not a good feeling for gear. Getting more of a stat should do more of what that stat does. That’s…how gear is supposed to function.

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Said noone ever…

D2 itemization sucks, and only mods made it tolerable.

Lol that’s all the D2-loving trolls can do, in order to attract more likes from others like them, while in the process completely obliterating the purpose of their post, and resulting in the relevant people completely ignoring it.

Which is just fine with me because the last thing they should do is start copying/pasting into D4 more fossilized trash from D2.

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Yet another zero post D2 fanboy making troll post of how D2 was the peak of ARPG evolution.

Breakpoints were essential to feel the progression? The breakpoints existed only because things were synced to the framerate. Breakpoints should not even exist, it’s a very archaic and pointless system.

Oh, breakpoints do exist in D3. Unfortunately.

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While D2 itemization definitely is better than D3’s, it doesn’t mean D2s itemization is good.
D3’s itemization is just really, really bad.
D4 should aim significantly higher than both of them imo.

Hit chance should not return imo. It can work in some games, but here it is better if you know an attack connects, as long as you don’t miss the target due to you own aiming. Whether your debuff or CC etc hits should not be based on a roll of dice. Plenty of RNG in these games already.
That is not so much an itemization topic anyway.

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oh ur so mart bro! blizz should give u a badge for ur post great job i gues… :joy_cat:

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No, I don’t think so.

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You have a point, but I am not a fan of attack rating. There is a reason attack rating is pretty much removed from most ARPG

I think many people think D3 stats are pretty boring & limited, But to be fair, most are useful, except life regen but only due to its figure being too small to make a difference.

I do think D4 is the right direction. I like stats to be interesting & unique rather than generic +hp, + str, + crit, + resist.
The reason being, it will end up everyone has gears which are just identical in the end…

I played PoE, & 90% of builds include, Look for high ES/life, resistancea & high movement speed in boots…Diversity…
Body Armor, look for High ES, resistence, HP…90% of build…Diversity

Good design should have some boring stats, mix with some interesting one like the “34% movement speed after killing elite” Its interesting if I am doing for a speed elite killing contents. If I want to push, then the “34% movement speed after killing elite” would be useless & I may want to swap with say a boots with “increase 30% armor if you are stationery” for instance.

Gearing will be more fun as you will be looking for gears with stats not everyone look for, but also different gears to fit the content you want to do or builds you want to play.

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Have to agree on the drop rate. I mean when the drop rate is low n you get something nice it just makes it that much more of a enjoyable experience. D3 legendary not only rain from the sky but you could very easily get them with blood shards n farming those quests for mats. It was just way to easy again no depth in D3. Great items should be hard to get and when you see someone with it there should be a ahhhhhh man moment.

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D3 itemization is hardly lazy as they changed skill and mechanic of your character’s skill instead of simply increasing the flat number of your character stat.

It wasn’t useful as you thought because most of your attack rating came from your character skill and passive. My werewolf doesn’t have much attack rating granted from the item and I have no issue with hitting Hell Baal or anything in hell.

I am pretty sure that D2 Defense doesn’t reduce incoming damage.

Reduced damage mods, by % or straight values, reduce damage. Defense just makes you less likely to be hit by physical attacks.

I am pretty sure that everyone was dumping stat point into VIT in D2 after they put enough STR/DEX to wear their desired gear or enough Dex for the maximum block.

It is not. Flat defense aren’t enough to save you in high GR. You need more than that.

You mean you don’t do that in D2?

I don’t consider Life per Hit is insane leech as it doesn’t calculate on the percentage as D2 did.

or resistance or CDR or RCR or legendary gems.

D3 Lv70 character has more skills to use, can wear better equipment such as Lv70 set item, have 4 passives, can access GR and higher torment difficulty.

There is a lot of progression and difference between Lv1 character and Lv70 character. It is just you are too biased to see it clearly.

If anything, I can’t tell the difference between Lv30 Werewolf druid and Lv85 Werewolf druid in D2.

Lv30 Werewolf uses Fury to kill stuff.
Lv85 Werewolf uses Fury to kill stuff but only this time it hits harder and faster.

Changing your character in D2 by exiting the game is just like changing your character’s role thru the armory in D3. It serves the same purpose in the end only D2 will take some time to do so.

And it is supposed to be a positive thing? :rofl:

D3 has…Ice Climber, Convention of Element, Nemesis Bracer, Leoric’s Crown, In Geom, Aqua Curiass, Stone Gauntlet, and so on…which are used in most build and class.

D3 has class-specific items too. Might weapon for Barbarian, Wand for Wizard, Scythe for Necromancer…:slight_smile:

Light Sorc in D2 can deal around 60K damage…so…

I guess stacking skill points, crushing blow, elemental damage from the charm, and resistance in D2 is not considering as stacking then.

The main stat is useful for your character.
CDR is useful for your character
Vit is useful for your character
CC is useful for your character
CD is useful for your character
LoP is useful for your character
Area Damage is useful for your character
Resistance is useful for your character
Armor is useful for your character


No seriously, what “most” being useless here? :thinking:

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Forget it, Kilometer. Arguing with the D2 fan club is pointless. Their views are colored by the wonder and nostalgia of 20 years ago.

I’ll give you a for-instance. There’s a guy on another thread arguing that items with static legendary properties should be called uniques. It’s like he didn’t even bother to look up what the word unique actually means. It’s just because D2 called them uniques - that’s all this poster needed.

It’s so, just because D2 did it that way.

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You mention D2’s breakpoints but fail to mention the parallel breakpoints in D3, e.g., APS breakpoints, CDR breakpoints, and Resource breakpoints all of which play a critical role in optimizing a build.Also, you mention Absorb affix for D2 but omit Area Damage, CDR, Elite Damage Reduction (EDR), Ranged Damage Reduction (RDR), Pickup Radius, Health Globe Bonus. (If you don’t see the value of pickup radius and Health Globe bonus on gear then you have a lot to learn about D3.)
Try looking looking at both games with a more objective lense and try to understand both before making all sorts of conclusions.

You’re right I don’t know the in depth details about Diablo 3 because I only played it on launch and got some info from a friend but the point I was trying to make still stands. I was mostly comparing how there were stats that were beneficial to everybody in a minor way but weren’t the main reason you sought after items. There were more stats and they weren’t absolutely useless like other games have. In the diablo 4 preview I saw “thorn damage” on a random stat. It’s obvious they added a few garbage just for a dice roll but missing the entire purpose of having multiple stats.

There is no bandaid fix way to make Diablo 3 items better, It’s the way the core game was designed from the ground up. That’s the point I’m trying to make. I understand that I’m in D3 forum though, and most of you probably don’t agree with it but the fact is most players from the Diablo franchise were disappointed in Diablo 3.

D2 had lots and lots of mostly worthless skills, stats, and items. A mile wide and an inch deep. D3 has plenty of worthless skills and items, but there aren’t any worthless stats. Neither game is a pinnacle of anything accept nostalgia and personal biases.

It’s clear you didn’t read my post at all because this is simply not true and I explained it by detailing every stat. The only useless stat was light radius THATS IT.
When you got a roll like “Defense vs Missiles” you feel it and value it. because the core game was designed around actually needing meaningful defenses due to normal white mobs having the ability to kill you quickly. This is simply not the case for Diablo 3, It’s too simplified and the diversity just isn’t there.

On the topic of breakpoints the way that Diablo 2 did them was absolutely terrible. The only reason I’d give Diablo 2 a pass on it is because it’s a byproduct of how the game engine worked at the time but it’s not something that should happen today.

Yeah that’s true which is why I said on the post I’m pretty sure it’s an outdated concept. But I was just using the breakpoints as an example to players having a choice on which stat they value more for their specific build or playstyle. If I wanted to farm cows I would need more FHR or I’d get stun locked for example.

By no means am I saying Diablo 2 is a perfect game I was giving all these examples as a whole and trying to explain how every little thing matters in player choice. No 2 Duel wield barbs would ever be the exact same in Diablo 2 (unless they tried to, or follow a specific build) there were options for every piece of gear around smaller substats that’s the point I’m getting at. But you d3 fanboy dad gamers want everything handed to you in an ARPG with no consequence.

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And there goes your credibility. How do you know anything if you don’t play the game?

So no, your point just crumbled to bits.

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Never had any to begin with.

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