What I HATE about Diablo IV Skill System - A Case for Character Building

But no characters are really ultimately unique at all with this approach?.. eventually someone could just spend the time to master each skill? There is no incentive to ever re-roll that class when you can just cycle through skills on the first character.

I don’t really see how 6 skills that you can interchange with other skills is a limiting factor. At least in regards to having unique customized characters and character building like this post is talking about it’s not really relevant.

Personal take it’s pretty fun to see people create different builds and to have different characters of the same class that are uniquely their own and play differently. The interchangeable skills take any novelty out of it and you can really just play the one character and level different skills so any unique customization isn’t so relevant.

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It would be a good addition if it were a choice. Let party’s select a loot system they want to play by. Either everything just dropping D2/D1 style, rolling for loot, or having personal loot. Regardless of which one you choose, non of the loot dropping should be tuned towards characters killing it, but random, for this is the RPG way.

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Very good post sir, thanks for the time you’ve put to assemble this together. A lot of things well said which I also thought of.

Blizz, I hope you read this and draw inspiration/conclusions.

I think you are personally. Look at D3, you have a much worse progression, but for most players, if you focus on lets say HotA Barbarian, you get ancients for that build, you augment it, level your legendary gems up to around 90-100 and focus that style. For most of the playerbase, that is their focus, that is their character. Most players are not going to have time to gather another ancient set, augment that set, level the leg gems, and push Whirlwind as well.

Then for players that play a lot, our limiting factor is going to be the buildout we choose to put in the 200-300 hour grind to get all skill points and master the class. Because class mastery means more to our character choices and role playing than being defined by a limiting specialization.

I do not want to waste time leveling multiple characters assuming the leveling process is going to be in the 50 hour timeframe they are suggesting. I want to master my character, continue to work on collecting all necessary loot for the builds I envision, and give them a go. Forcing someone to level a new character is not fantasy lore in my eyes, it is a burnout.

But that is because my role playing choice is becoming the mast of a class with MY CHARACTER.

The way that I understand it, it isn’t a smart loot drops when they are talking loot dropping for your character. The way that I understand it as follows I will use a barb and a monk. You are playing a barb and I am playing a monk. Both of us are the only ones teaming together.

Loot drops more like non smart loot of old but with D4’s affixes. Using D3’s sets to explain what I am talk about. Two set items drop, your monk gets Firebird’s chest, and I get UE’s boots. You cannot see my boots that dropped and I cannot see the chest that dropped for you.

This is better instead of everyone’s loot up for grabs then a ninja looter can pickup all of the loot. Whatever the game decided that I should get for putting in the effort is what I want to have. You might want to be the ninja that goes around taking what others should be getting, but not me nor does anyone else want to fall victim to such thing.

Levelling a character is not different from this -

You’re doing the same thing, you are playing the same game you did at higher levels, except you start a new hero.

The difference between D3 and D2, is that with D2 you actually feel like building a Character.

Whereas in D3, you can augment your WW set, while continuing to play Hota and then swap over when WW is good enough.

This is not character building this is item building.

In D2, you would collect your WW set on your Hota barb. Then start a new character and build him. Then equip that loot.

In D3 levelling is pointless. They could just start you off at Lv70 and you’d be good to go. What you do prior to hitting 70 does not even matter.

D3 does not even need levelling at all. Since you only level up items and gems.

InD2, Levelling is the mode in which you play. No matter which hero you play, you are levelling. No matter when you play, you are levelling.

In D4 levelling should be part of the endgame and playing a Lv1 hero should be the endgame itself.

What if I don’t like the build after investing time into a character?

You can easily get your base build going in after several hours and if you don’t like that playstyle, you can start another.

In D3 you are bound to finding items,and your playstyle is determined by the items.

If you don’t like, you are forced into playing that playstyle until you get something better.

This is why levelling is more fun in D2, because from Lvl 1 you play the build you want. (though it can be improved in some areas, e.g. Werebear form, Throw Barb)

In D3, you level then get some random items, play the build you didn’t want to play eventually try to get the build you want.

Further the itemization, especially the emphasis on Legs/Sets, is so bad that it prevents you from running the builds you want to run. You are basically force fed into Set items, and with LoN, into Legs.

So if the build you want to play has no Legs/Sets associated with it. You are pretty much f***ed.

That’s more to do with the problems in D3’s itemization than it’s character building. But the reason why D3’s itemization has this issue is because it is missing Character Building. If D3 had character building, it would have to change how it does its itemization and would have to build items to support what the players wants to do.

D2 is far more enjoyable for this reason alone. The player is empowered with items that they can use to augment their CHOSEN playstyle.

Whereas in D3, the game shoehorns you into builds that you may not want to play by creating mandatory Legs and Sets.

And it can do this, because it knows the player has not built a Character. It can do this because it knows all “characters” in D3 are the same and so the game can then choose your playstyle for you, and outright prevent you from wandering away from that.

Case in point - Spirit Warrior , Witch Doctor - one who uses all 6 spirit spells. Since 2012 I have been wanting to play this character but the 7 years later the game still shoehorns me into Carn, Jade and Gargs.

This is ridiculous way to build items.

And the issue started when they removed the Character and the Character’s interest from the equation.

And we must keep coming back to Character Building.

This is the foundation stone of what makes an ARPG and RPG.

D3 has action but no RPG.

This is why its itemization is also terrible. This is why the levelling experience in D3 is terrible.

D2 has RPG elements like stats and skills AND an itemization designed to help you play those skills better, which make the levelling experience fun.

In D2 itemization is such that things at lower levels can be used at higher levels, which makes the levelling experience fun.

In D2, you play the same game at Level 1 than you did at Level 60, which makes the levelling experience fun.

I would say D2 the levelling is happening in the background as you play your hero. Investing stats and skills (Character building), and finding items is the core loop, and every character you play is involved in it.

There is no “your character” in D3. You just play the class and you are already the master of it.

It’s true. Your items can always be improved but hey your items can always be improved in D2 as well.

You are not forced to level a new character. If you really want to swap to WW barb from Hota, you can stay with your current character, and respec it.

Expensive respecs are for players like you who are not in the mood to play from Lvl 1.

But for the rest of us, playing from Lvl 1 only adds to the game. it does not take away from it.

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We actually don’t know if you’ll be able to get everything through Tomes yet, we only know that they exist as a means of getting extra points - Blizzard could still put a hard point cap in place that you can’t exceed with more tomes.

We just have to wait and see.

They have said you can max all skills by finding tomes. That means skills points are an unlimited resource, and there is no Character building.

This is why we are having this discussion.

If they had left it as, you just level up your skills till 40, then we would know that skill points are limited and you are actually building a Character.

They showed us a powerpoint where you acquire skills 1 by 1 just like in D3. This system would not work with Character building.

See the OP for why it sucks.

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It really is different to me though, I do not want four different fantasies for one class. I want my fantasy to be on one character for that one class. I do not think this is unordinary.

I think that with enough time anyone that would want to unlock all skills and have them at max level will be able to do so. How long that will take is unknown, it might be better to re-roll your character to try out different builds than waiting to get all skills unlocked and raise them to max with tomes. We have to wait and see which is better when we either get a chance to play in the beta, by the information we get from Blizz and others in the beta (no NDA), or till we get a chance to play the game ourself

How long will it take to unlock and max out all skills. If it will take twice as long to unlock all skills at max level than it does to level a character to max and get decent enough gear to play a new build then we will be re-rolling characters instead of waiting for paint to dry to try out new builds.

Even if you can get them all within a decent amount of time. Then it is a choice that you can make. Do you want a character that has all skills at max level or do you want one that only has a small amount of skills. The choice is yours. Nothing says that you have to use skill tomes as soon as you find them. After leveling up all skills that you intend on using for whatever build that you make you could leave the all other skill tomes on the ground along with anything else that you want to leave behind in drops.

I don’t need the game to force me to re-roll if I want to. More so if the game is fun to play. I can tell you truthfully if D4 is more fun to play while leveling with so many different ways to level then I would be one that would re-roll characters just to try out new builds

You are playing the wrong franchise then. :confused:

All Diablo games are about different fantasies for each class. Even D3 tried to do this but with items alone (which then lead to many problems as I described).

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Am I though?

Because both D1 and D3 fulfilled this fantasy for me, D2 wanted to add replayability by forcing you to reroll to try other skills.

D2 had great customization, but forcing a reroll to make me now have 5 different characters rather than allowing me to work my butt off and have the ability at some point to transition between builds is two completely different feelings.

The transition in D3 lacks substance because you have no skill points, no talent trees, and the progression is weak.

Yes.

All games have multiple fantasies for different classes.

You are getting there slowly. Keep thinking about it, eventually you will agree with what I posted to you earlier -

I copied this to the EU server, please let me know if i should delete it. I just think its so good it should reach more people

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I like the idea of building a character with identity, and when you select / unlock a specific “skill”, that skill has it’s own unique tree’s which can change the effect of that skill…(I also hope they have a tonne of depth to the rune system in Diablo 4, and the ability to level runes, but not having them on potions to activate abilities - I can’t stand potion spam).

Spending time mapping out skill trees, talent trees, which items you want to facilitate your builds and having ridiculously expensive costs to change talents / skills is all a great thing to me.

Lykotic’s idea with skill points to unlock tree’s for a specific skill after it reaches a certain level (maybe experience through use of that skill), such as changing the damage type, what effect the spell has, attack speed, cool down reduction of skill e.t.c would be really nice.

I’m getting bored of the comments calling Diablo 3 trash though, they stuffed up a few things - but if it was really that bad it wouldn’t have 5x the sales of Diablo 2 on PC alone?..You can learn from things in both games to make Diablo 4, and from PoE / Grim Dawn / Last Epoch - they all have elements that would benefit Diablo 4.

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There is no Skill Rune system in D4 (yet)

The skills can be upgraded by adding points to it when leveling up, the “diversity” of effect lies in the talent system… Which frankly felt “too simple”, most of them are not specific-skill related but rather skill-tree related buffs

The Rune system in D4 is more about creating your own custom “trigger”, i.e. when I do X, Y or Z, activate/do X, Y, Z. Could be 3 types of activation of 1 effect, could be 1 activation (condition) activating 3 things at once… When EITHER of the conditions are met, do ALL the effects assigned

THAT is what the Rune-system in D4 is. It allows (as per the devs) the player to customize NOT ONLY what, but also WHEN to do stuff… It is VERY MUCH like defining a (bunch of) custom trigger/s

The “when potion is used gain a 50% chance to crit” thingy they did was just a demonstration to give the “guests” what to expect/hope the system would do

I honestly LOVE the idea 100% , BUT doubt that would be the system/feature you’d look for to customize your skills. We’d STILL need a skill-tree system (either rune system like in D3, OR tree per skill specifically) to allow customization/s

OR at least item-skill system (other than legendaries) that would do more than just damage buffs to skills tbh

the rune, that activates on potion drinking was just 1 condition rune out of many
it was just an example

Yes, but it’s one I don’t want to exist period.

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That specific one is no different from the unique potions in D3

I don’t think the one has to exclude the other.
You can join a party with someone and decide/choose a lootsystem you both agree upon. If you don’t like the system you leave the party and enjoy your personal loot, or join/create another party that uses personal loot.

I understand that there are people who play this game just for themselves, and care only for the loot they themselves get. But luckily this is not the case for everyone. I hope blizzard will come up with some options we get to choose from being a party on how we want to handle loot. If I`m a mage and my buddy is a barb, I still want to find weapons with strength/agility on them instead of int etc. And I want us both to be able to see loot drop instead of both playing singleplayer in the same party in terms of loot.