Vyr's disappointed me

Context: I started D3 at season 20. For immersion reasons, I play 1 class per season. S20 was my D2 favourite necro, S21 was monk, so I decided S22 to play the wizard (and a zBarb for group play, as Wiz is the most hated class by blizz). I knew Vyr’s is a pretty decent build, but the changed Typhon was announced so I thought I’d give it a try. Keep in mind I’m not the best of players, and only achieve leaderboards during NS, when most people don’t play the updated builds from PTRs.

Season start: I gear up my wiz with Typhon and all, start at GR110 and thinking “I can go super high with this!”. Big lol, I couldn’t go higher than GR119 at 14xx para. I listened to a clanmate who suggested I played Vyr’s “as it’s the best build, probably better than LoD Twister”.

Past week: I’ve geared up my wiz with Vyr’s + Chan, have tried every possible combination of the build: EB, HoK, CoE, Unity, OrotZ, Captain C, Squirt, you name it, I’ve tried it. Currently stuck at GR115 and that was a super lucky one. Tried GR116 today with the EB double element variant, perfect map (woods+woods) with good density and pylons, missed it by around 20". Off-hand, pants and head have augments 110+. At para 19xx and Lgems at 120+. Failed miserably.

How do people on youtube and guides and leaderboards pull off a GR125 with this at para 1400? I literally had the perfect sequence of maps, only 1 jugg (who btw died at the 4th rotation while a blue with health link needed like 6 rotation). As I said, I know I’m bad, but wth am I doing so wrong?

Edit: typos
Edit 2: CHC 45%+, CHD 400%+, CR 60-70% before Lgem kicks in.

Sounds like you’re sticking around and killing too many elites. You either need to drag them with you, or leave them behind. Killing elites without trash around is bad. You need the trash for stacks. If you aren’t fighting trash, you’re losing potential stacks. For high end pushes, you’ll still kill some elites, but mostly only if you have a Power or Conduit or get them with a gigantic pack of trash. You should still be able to kill most elites in 116, but in higher GRs, you’ll have to start leaving some behind. Lone elites are very bad for Vyr’s. Just skip them.

The biggest problem I see people having with Vyr’s is trying to kill everything. You can’t do that. Small packs of trash or lone elites? Insta-skip. You have very high mobility, so use it. When your Swami stacks drop off, you should be kiting stuff or moving between packs, looking for the next big group of density. Your damage scales with density, you can’t afford to spend 3 cycles killing a lone yellow that’s left at 40% HP. That’s a huge loss in stack count, and your damage suffers because of it. You need to keep the stack snowball rolling.

That seems exceedingly low. You’re missing almost 20% CHC? That’s not what’s holding you back, that’s only a few GRs of lost damage, but 45% is quite low.

Sure, in non-season. That’s just not true in seasons though. In seasons, twister is just stronger. Vyr’s is solid, but in seasons, builds that can leverage Deathwish in the 4th cube slot (Twisters, LoD Hydra, Frozen Orb) will all be considerably stronger. The 4th cube slot gives Vyr’s about 3-4 GRs, but Deathwish gives twisters like 9 GRs, so Vyr’s is further behind in seasons.

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You may not be the best player out there, but you ain’t the worst either. Last season I found a Primal Chantado’s Force which I immediately scrapped because I hate Vyr (I hate counters and constant button pushing, but mostly I hate it because I suck at it). Then the game gave me a second Primal Chantado’s Force and I felt obligated to try playing Vyr one more time. I died early and often and the monsters laughed every time they saw me coming. I traded my primal in for another 15 Forgotten souls.

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Honestly, thank you very much. I’ve seen a lot of videos and read a lot of topics about Vyr’s gameplay and I don’t recall any of them saying “Too few trash, Imma skip” so I was always trying to just gather as many as possible. Now I realise that I need to gather massive amounts to make it work. And it did. Already pushed 2 more GRs with slight fishing and today will go for more.

Well, you ain’t the worst either. If I managed to pull it of, so can you!

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I have ADHD and can only play one character so long. This season I have a HC LOD Twister Wizard, HC Typhon Wizard, HC WW/Rend Barb (for speed runs), and had a HC WOL Monk (I played both Inna and Sunwuko) which I got bored with and deleted. I am currently developing a HC Impale DH just for nostalgia because it was the first character I learned to play in D3. This is no longer a powerful build, but I just want to see how far I can take it. With power creep and a fourth slot I’m sure to do better than I did years ago, but the GoD DH is clearly the current best DH build. I hate GoD for the same reason I hate Vyr, too much timing and button pushing. I prefer the “See Monster, Hit Monster” style of play. Glad you are being successful at a new character and having fun with it.

I think death wish can be used pretty effectively with Vyrs. Just channel 1 second before archon and hold till you pop it. This will give you at least one second+ of deathwish buffed chantodos. Maybe two WoD are buffed? That’s a massive burst with a well timed CoE cycle. At least it’s a massive trash nuke. Probably better options though

I tried that, didn’t really do anything. DW is a very bad mechanic, as so many other threads in the forum have stated.

You’d only get one. That means you get 4.25x damage on 1/21 Chantodo’s waves. Fun fact, Chantodo’s waves go out every 59 frames, not every 60 frames, but at 59/60 of the stated weapon damage. You get 21 waves per Archon. But even with 59 frames instead of 60 frame, they are still too far apart to have Deathwish active for 2 of them, you’d only get the first one. Also the first wave goes out 3-4 frames after Archon activation IIRC, and the waves have a few frames of travel time. So the second wave doesn’t reach the outer edge of it’s range until something like 65-70 frames into Archon (first wave around frame 3-4, 59 frames to next wave, then a few more frames of travel time for the second wave until it reaches it’s outer range).

It ends up being roughly a (4.25 + 20)/21 = 15.4% DPS increase (okay, not actually, you’d have to math it out over your changing stack count, when your Swami stacks expire, and when your CoE hits, but we’re talking less than 20% dps here for a Deathwish-buffed single wave). In non-seasons, Furnace is better. In seasons, using the theme to get Crimson’s or Endless Walk is just better too. There’s not really any reason to run Deathwish, unless you are doing a reverse Archon Manald build or something. Deathwish + Chantodo’s just isn’t worth it.

Also I don’t think it would work anymore? I thought when they were fixing Bazooka they made it so that Archon activation cancelled the Deathwish buff (on top of the channeling delay), or at least they tried to. But I could be wrong about that.

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Yeah, it’s pretty bad. I didn’t realize it was that bad though.

I did some LoD twister gameplay with archon. Stacks popped up to 100, but I could make heads or tails of anything since I was so glassy. Definitely didn’t have the paragons/practice to play.

Coming back to this, and I’ve made some nice progress. Just finished a GR124 with 2,3k paragon with the cold version of Vyr and I can see how I can go a bit higher. However, I’ve been trying out the double element variant, and while I can easily notice the vast increase in damage (even with a sub-par Traveler’s Pledge), I am so squishy outside archon, especially when I start the rift trying to get the Explosive Blast stacks to 4.
Any tips on the double element variant?