Very strong competitor and alternative to rats (Still in Test)

Wizard
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hi

would like to point out, (after considerable amount of testing), that this build, for season 22 (only), will be strong enough to compete with the standard rat meta, and is pretty safe and viable for HC runs as well.

https://ptr.d3planner.com/256348643
This build should not be used, only being left as ref.

lightning is pretty much understated over cold when it comes to hydra, but should not take a back seat when it comes to off screen kills and overall built in safety from distance.

the damage compared to rat clear is competitive vs the speed you will lose. and the speed is marginal vs the safety you get should your znec screw up. this also leaves possible subs for other class combo’s, or a sub for znec. could even run 3 of the above listed and one zbarb.

this season will open up quite a few new choices when it comes to paragon grind. just thought i would share the build option.

all the best.

ps. there is also room to edit in the build. ie: bane of the powerful, unity… ect.

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Awesome. Good to see some positive thoughts.

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Typhon’s set doesn’t buff Manald Heal proc damage. There’s no point to having Manald Heal in the build. The damage from Manald Heal procs will be negligible compared to the damage the hydras themselves deal.

EDIT: Looks like D3planner is calculating Typhon’s damage as buffing Manald Heal procs, but I’m fairly certain that’s incorrect. Same for Magistrate, Serpent’s Sparker, and Winter Flurry. So Manald Heal procs in this build will do 8040x less damage than D3 planner is reporting.

EDIT2: Cratic said he tested it on an older PTR and it didn’t buff Manald Heal proc damage.

Magistrate does not increase MH proc damage (Lightning Hydra).
Serpent sparker does not increase MH proc Damage (Lightning Hydra).
Typhon’s 6pc does not increase MH proc damage (Lightning Hydra

Not saying Lightning Hydras aren’t viable, but adding Manald Heal + Paralysis passive is a complete waste of a ring + passive slot.

EDIT3: Ooof, and you added Wyrdward in there? Ignoring the fact that Manald Heal doesn’t work with the Typhon’s and hydra buffs anyway, Wyrdward doesn’t work with Manald Heal. The stuns have to come from the Paralysis passive itself, item stuns don’t count. Waste of two ring slots and a passive slot.

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hi.

wyrdward stacks with paralysis, giving a total opportunity of over 30%+ for MH to proc. you are wrong on this. “ooof” also, the action of stun does not need occur for the damage to initiate, ie: diminishing returns on stun. meaning as long at the stun procs the damage occurs without the stun. making RG damage credible with better break points (Lightning) and all heads hitting.

as for the damage and how it’s calculated on d3 planner. the damage seems to be there in game play. not sure how Cratic tested… or if there was a change with the last patch. but it’s clearly there. but, i could be wrong. i’m ok with that. maybe test it out yourself as i have. then decide.

i realize that posting here, tends to bring out the best in people. but instead of ripping the build apart, ie: wyrdward, gem options… ect. play it. either way, i find it quite effective 90+ so far.

all the best.

edit: if you do test it out, and find the same conclusion as Cratic. post up so i can either delete the post or edit a remark with ref. to “rat alternative”. ty. it’s difficult to see from the nature of the skill. but looks working to me. cheers.

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Sorry if I came across as harsh. I understand I can be a bit abrasive, because I am pretty analytical and tend to just post descriptions of the mechanics and why I think things will/won’t work. My intention wasn’t to attack you or your build, but rather to point out things that don’t make sense so that you can improve on it. Honest.

Is a lightning Typhon’s build viable? Sure. I was simply trying to point out that Manald Heal, Paralysis, and Wyrdward are all wasted slots. You should try to improve the build but replacing those with something else that actually works with the multipliers you already have in the build. As is stands, your regular hydra attacks will do far more damage than your Manald Heal procs with this build. At that point, it’s better to forego Manald Heal entirely and focus on items that buff your lightning hydras directly.

I tested it once in the past, and came to the same conclusion as Cratic. It’s unlikely it’s changed since then.

The damage you are seeing is very likely coming from your regular hydra attacks, not the Manald Heal procs.

A good test would be to drop Manald Heal and Paralysis and Wyrward entirely and see if your damage still feels roughly the same. If you can drop all three of those items without your damage really changing, then it’s not Manald Heal dealing the bulk of your damage, it’s your regular hydra attacks.

I know it didn’t really come across that way, but I was genuinely trying to help you understand the mechanics of the build and why Manald Heal doesn’t make sense for it. A lightning hydra build can totally be viable. I was just trying to help you make it better.

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You are correct that Wyrdward will trigger stuns in addition to Paralysis passive.
You are also correct that an actual physical stun doesn’t need to occur, only a successful roll for a stun from Paralysis, so that even if enemies are CC immune from repeated stuns, then can still take damage from Manald Heal.

However, this does not mean that Wyrdward increases Manald Heal procs. I think you are missing that Manald Heal procs can only occur from successful stun rolls from Paralysis passive, not from any other source of stuns. Wyrdward cannot trigger Manald Heal procs. This is easy to confirm, take off Paralysis passive and see if you still get any Manald Heal procs. If the combo of Wyrdward + Manald Heal without Paralysis does not trigger Manald Heal procs, then Wyrdward (and other sources of stun that aren’t Paralysis) cannot trigger Manald Heal procs. This has been tested before, and it was found that Wyrdward does not trigger additional Manald Heal procs. Would it be nice if it could? Sure. But unfortunately it doesn’t. This should also be clear from the Manald Heal item description, which specifically states “Enemies stunned with Paralysis” not simply “Enemies hit with a stun”.

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hi Tin,

thank you for taking the time to nurture the explanation more. also ty for the apology. i will try not to be abrasive or snarky as well.

to be honest, with a couple of things. most of my testing was based on ptr, i am however putting together the same build in standard and working through the numbers myself. also, there seems to be some misinformation on diablo wiki with regards to wyrdward, paralysis and MH just in general, and is where i got my retort on the stacking. i could have read it wrong. my apologies for that.

here is states: that paralysis can be applied from pets/hydra, and stacks with wyrd.

https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Paralysis

here it states that wyrd stacks with paralysis “effectively tripling it’s potency”

https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Wyrdward

then lastly here, it states " Stuns caused by [Wyrdward] do not proc Manald Heal, This is because [Paralysis] can only be applied directly from lightning damage skills cast by the player.

https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Manald_Heal_(Diablo_III)

talk about being all over the place? i did some testing on stun frequency with haunt of vax. stuns feel like they proc more often. as for damage, it’s very difficult to pluck them out, i am not able to use any recording tools atm, so i cant slow down the number spam. i have noticed (but could be just my poor vision), not seeing MH numbers at all, even after hydra stun,(sometimes). i do know MH can crit, (at least it should) but haven’t tried just running show cit only. (on screen)

i won’t challenge this anymore. but still add more testing, all though probably just banging my head against the concept. i will change my title and make appropriate edits. leaving this up just in case anyone else might find it helpful.

i will also work on the build without Manald or Paralysis, as i feel there is great potential for Lightning hydra this season.

all the best. and sorry for the wall.

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That’s actually all consistent.

For the first two, it’s talking about Stuns from Paralysis stacking with stuns from Wyrdward. Nothing in those first two links is in reference to Manald Heal.

The third part is saying that the additional stuns from Wyrdward won’t trigger Manald Heal.

So basically, if you run Manald Heal + Paralysis + Wyrdward all together, you get stuns from both Paralysis and Wyrdward. However, only the stuns from Paralysis trigger Manald Heal procs. You still get some extra stuns from Wyrdward, but they only provide a stun effect, those extra stuns from Wyrdward won’t trigger any extra Manald Heal procs. So Wyrdward gives you more stuns, but not any extra procs, if that makes sense.

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yes, indeed.

i did read it incorrectly. it was the “effectively tripling it’s potency” reading like potency of paralysis, triggering MH… and so on. but i do understand clearly now. and thought possibly the same context while first reading it. simple mistake.

cheers.

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You should probably note Wyrmward stuns also DR very quickly. They don’t affect paralysis + Manald procs, but the stun effect itself becomes very useless very quickly. It’s better to drop Wyrmward entirely for every build (except mercenary) pending redesign.

Long story short: Manald has issues. Wyrmward is garbage. Better to not use them.