Agree; very valid points. Now here comes the most basic discussion of whether a “choice is a true choice”. And to what extent we really choose (or did choose in Diablo 2), and how much of it was Illusion.
That has been the argumentation behind Diablo 3 itemization, if I remember correctly. And I have to say, it probably aint easy to make good itemization. Just repeating the olds (Diablo 2) wont work, because its a game of its own.
Creating the mechanics, the restrictions, the choices within a new game demands of an understanding or a Vision of what it really should be, or entail, or bring about. And this again is (seemingly) up to lots of discussion. It seems to not be definite (although you show in the video some definites, from a certain perspective/point of view).
So the Point being - what really is the issue with implementing proper itemization - and what is meant by “proper itemization” in the concrete FOR A NEW GAME?
Is it too complex? Is it that the vision of what that is or should be is difficult to forge? Because the complexity IMO lies herein, that - taking Diablo 3 for example - some (e.g. those who made the systems in place) could argue that there IS proper itemization. Because the minds spread so far in reaches about what this actually is.
To say what it has been and what it should not be doesnt create “new” and “proper” itemization.
Take history. Revolution rarely led to new systems in place that worked properly and discarded the old ones. And going “back” hardly works too. There needs to be initiative, something new.
And here is, I feel, the gap. The lack. And all the said above. Because its a tough question to answer - but answering it would be the best Feedback possible, I guess. BECAUSE ANSWERING IT is that which people demand (from the makers of the game); they demand an answer, a solution. But what is demanded is unconcrete in essence - including your Video. Its still undefinite (not for me, but in General).
It is like a relationship or the s-exlife with your spouse aint working - to state what isnt working isnt going to work. There needs to be a positive. A Vision for how it should or could work. A new something towards which the lack of something can fulfill itself.
So now, without redoing the old of Diablo 2, but being INSPIRED by the experience and Depth and choice of it - without making the Diablo 3 mistakes - what should be created, in the concrete? How could it be?
That needs to be answered.
how about gathering ideas like with the d3 powers for legendary items threads?
where to start? with basic affixes and suffixes after that legendary powers? how many or how high and how crazy on combinations can said rolls be for blue, yellow, legendary items?
would a blue item “with spawn a hydra power” be too strong compared to a yellow item “with stack stat x to increase effect of skill/passive y” or a legendary
“that drops 1-3 meteors whenever you use skill z” etc?
It’s less about going back to the old, and more about going forward with a similar framework. That framework being “non-linear”, and it certainly is a combination of system choices that creates that environment. Sticking the same items and affixes in Diablo 3 and Diablo 4 that existed in Diablo 2 wouldn’t necessarily create the same level of itemization, or even non-linearity that existed in Diablo 2. However, the framework that I have seen so far from Diablo 4, is one that looks similar to Diablo 3.
Limited trading, skills damage being tied to one “damage” stat, and items with simple and easy ways to solve which is best. The combination of these systems is what creates that linearity. And I think by showing examples of items and systems and how they differ in Diablo 2 and Diablo 3, that the developers can potentially come up with systems for Diablo 4 that create a new environment that is conducive to meaningful and non-linear choices. It doesn’t need to copy Diablo 2.
I think these are the questions we should ponder about. Because they probably aint going to change the systematics they have implied for items that much. So there needs to be ways within their systematics where these fundamental itemization-structures find their places (that is, every item having potential endgame-value and non-linearity in choice and Progression).
One way could be giving certain items certain bonuses that are
- in themselves special and worthwhile
- cant be gotten anywhere else
- dont offer “too much” on top of that speciality
= it remains optional and viable because it has pros and cons - neither being mandatory, nor nugatory
So they have to be good and special enough (or purposeful), yet not be -too- good along the lines as to make everything else obsolete. Everything needs to have its potential place in usage, without being mandatory
This implies that legandaries need to have their specialities - but they also need to have negatives for things to remain optional.
Mythics are in a good place if they stick with the “1 mythic item equipped at a time only”. Then they can actually be BiS, if its for one Slot - then it remains optional too, in the big Picture.
For proper suggestions to come up, we need to consider all systems in place, so that we spread possibilities among all items (Whites, blues, yellows, legendaries).
Beyond item types, there are Basic stats (att/def) so far, Affix/Suffix as a possible addition to the item, and a “power” that relates to certain dynamics or skills which can be given in different combinations and different variations of power and extent to the various item types.
Also, we got runes. 2 runes do a runeword, so to speak. So there is room for giving items value just by having sockets. This could mean as follows:
Yellow/legendaries are restricted to 2 sockets each. Means, one runeword or “effect due to runes” as it is currently.
Blues could, for instance, have 4 sockets. So the cons of having less strong or less possible Affixes, they “could” potentially make up with having 2 runewords in there.
White ones could have 6 sockets - giving 3 different runeword bonuses, and there could be “total bonuses” for making certain combinations, a la the Oldschool runewords from Diablo 2. Means, you get 6 runes, which make 3 effect-combinations, and certain combinations (e.g. ElEld+TalThul+LemKo in a White armor) could also provide a “runeword” as per Definition when “completed”, providing an additional bonus worthwhile of using, without being overpowered.
E.g. runeword of an armory that grants +3 to Hydra and a 5% Chance to cast Hydra when hit, and the combinations of runes could imply a more defensive/melee orientated variant, adding bonuses to a playstyle that is akin to being “hit more often”.
Or a helmet runeword that gives Overall good stats, but not so good that it lessens other items (so Basics like Maybe a good amount of Health, +1 all skill, and proper added regen of resource) - and the runes inside could add resourceful and Pretty “General” bonuses on top of that… e.g. lets say El rune gives “when you are hit you trigger effect of secondary rune”, the runeword is ElZodElLemElEld, then you have Maybe "when you are hit you have a x% Chance to trigger -15% cooldown time on a random skill that is on CD, -30% resourcecost on your next cast, +5 resource-reg per second for 3 seconds… each trigger having an individual trigger-chance when you are hit.
You see where this is going.
- Whites become optionally good by having 3 possible runeword-trigger-combinations plus one unique Addition to a certain completed combination (“real” runeword as we know it)
- Blues become “better” and easier “balance-able” from a great-picture Point of view, because they can make up for their lesser stats with having 2 possible rune-combinations (that is, having 4 sockets available possibly).
- Yellows and Legendaries “loose” value as their maximum amount of sockets is 2, granting them a “con” in the big itemziation Picture in spite of their raw power they provide… making them less mandatory without taking away their power at all and moving some of the itemization power to White and blues without harming yellow/legendaries/mythics at all
- Mythics are out of the equation in case there will be a) many viable choices per Slot and b) usage will be limited to one Slot only (so only 1 mythic item can be worn at a time in total. So either it is this gloves, or that gloves, or an Amulett instead, etc.) leaving all other spots free to other Tiers of items
So far in my thought-stream in regards to itemization in Diablo 4 within their system-Framework so far.
hm k if we talk about runewords… how could they be impelemented to be useful instead of OP or useless?
seriously would it be overpowered if you trigger a hydra or lightning trap if you get hit by a monster without x% chance as runeword?
(atm the effect is x% chance on attack and kinda random on the map but idk about dmg/scaling)
this may sound savage but after looking at the wannabe runewords, powers, skills, passives, skilltree so far i would propose that they stop wasting time to implement their ideas and create open suggestion threads for each topic and pick the best/most upvoted ideas… ofc it would be mandatory that they talk about why certain stuff can not be considered or how they could be adjusted…
The marketing department heads the dev team.
We’ll never see non-linear itemization anymore. Reason: the target demographic.
Sad. Very sad.
posted this in