[TLDR warning] Blizz, please reconsider your streamlining of stats, character building and the current state of itemization

Gonna start this by saying I was firmly of the belief that all I had to look forward to this morning was another out of season April Fool’s joke. My faith in Diablo as a series had been utterly crushed by the showing last year, and I came into a friend’s stream of the opening ceremonies and virtual ticket panels expecting to be disappointed.

Needless to say I wasn’t, both the reveal trailer and the gameplay had me hyped in a way I hadn’t been since that day in 2008 when D3 was revealed for the first time. I liked everything I saw. The darker, grittier tone to the world and art design, the building upon of D3’s already excellent combat gameplay, the promise of bigger areas to explore and more to do, I hung on every word of that panel eager to hear more details.

But then the day went on, and news from the show floor and people playing the actual floor demo came out and, well… basically character stats have been reduced to Attack, Defense, and Life, and items similarly have been reduced to Attack, Defense, 1-2 mods, and unique property if it’s a unique. Yikes. (there would have been an image here but alas, lowly peasants are not allowed to link anything in their posts)

That feeling of unease and dread set in. How? How could they get so much else right and then get something like this so, so wrong? Did they learn nothing from how badly Diablo 3 streamlining game systems and itemization hurt character building and build diversity? I honestly couldn’t believe it. I felt the hype leaving me, it was a shock to see our characters stats and the loot reduced to 3 single numbers.

Please seriously reconsider ‘dumbing down’ things this far. Part of what made 2 and other games in the genre so fun was the ridiculously indepth character build and theorycrafting, and the sad state of itemization and overly streamlined stats hurts this in more ways then one. When you condense down the ultimately number-driven fabric of the characters and builds we put so many hours into perfecting, including their core stats like Strength, Dex, etc., and the various defenses, resists, and other things that make my WW barb different from someone else’s WW barb, into simplified Attack and Defense ratings, it kills almost all of the uniqueness between characters or even illusion of player choice that any of these properties on their hard-earned gear mean anything for their character.

When you see your resists cap out or your health orb drain out and fill back up to accompany your new higher HP totla or your chance to resist CC increase in your stat sheet when you put on a new item, it makes you feel like that item is actually worth using, like it 's a notable upgrade that matters. The stats and having all of them visible and not consolidated into one monolithic rating matter more than you realize for giving players a sense that every upgrade they make has real weight and worth. Having just two ‘core stats’ of Attack and Defense ends up reducing finding an upgrade to GREEN ARROW GOOD, RED ARROW BAD which…it means nothing. You’re not making meaningful tradeoffs like sacrificing some survivability for more magic find, or stacking dodge chance or resists in favor of some DPS, all of which you can easily see at a glance with a full stat sheet available to you, you’re just constantly trying to boost the 3 numbers and making no meaningful build choice at all. It’s reductive, it’s boring, and just not as fun. In this case, less is not more, it’s just less and that’s sad.

Now I’m not saying you should go completely over the top and bring in a full stat spread like we’re Dark Souls or a traditional CRPG, but simply going back to how D2 did it, where the player has full control over how they allocate their core stats, and where items can meaningfully have an impact on how your character improves with their numerous mods and being able to see that impact they have as your core stats and various defenses, resists and such increase, would be much preferred over the overly minimalist, insultingly streamlined stuff you’ve got going now. Heck, even D3’s way of handling stats was better, even if there was far too much emphasis on pumping your core stat and vitality and only your core stat and vitality as far as stats went.

As for itemization, simplifying items down to core stat + two random mods at most in total (at least, that was the most people in the demo ever saw) is also just something that irks me. When you got a godly rare in D2 and saw the big list of mods it had, it got you thinking, ‘how can I make use of all these good rolled mods?’ You moved items around, got items to complement the new godly rare, and your character improved for it, even if a couple of the mods weren’t really used or factored into the build. But the D3 style ‘core stat + 1-2 random mods + unique mod if unique’ design just doesn’t do that. There’s less possibilities overall for truly interesting items, and it ends up resulting in rares and blues being mostly worthless once you start getting uniques, simply because they get that unique mod on top of the paltry core stats + 2 random mods they get.
Honestly, don’t be afraid of giving the player like 6 or 7 random mods, or an item not having core stat at all being a potential way an item can roll. It makes the loot feel more unique and special when they get an amazingly rolled rare in the first hour of the game that easily carries them for 10 or 15 levels. Not only does the item having more stuff on it just look more appealing and pleases the little lizard part of the brain that goes ‘oooh, shiny’, but it just makes the overall experience of seeking out that ridiculous perfect rolled set of boots with all resist, movespeed, can’t be frozen, etc. all the more enticing.

Basically the gist of this all is, Less isn’t more, it’s less, especially in a game that you will spend potentially hundreds of hours building a single character on. You want to go back to Diablo’s roots, what makes Diablo, Diablo. Well I feel pretty confident in telling you that the minimalist, streamlined, seemingly ‘made for console’ itemization and character building just isn’t Diablo. I think a lot of people felt the same way today.

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I saw it now too in a restream. I agree I dont like the streamlined stats. I really hope it´s only an overview. I really dont want the system back from D3.
But now I guess it will be a no brainer again…

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I didn’t even see any Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence stats. I saw a screenshot of a ring that had literally a number for “Attack” and “Defense”. Pathetic. You’re telling me that items will be interchangeable between the Barbarian and the Sorceress? There are no items that are specific to casters or melees?

That’s one way to ruin D4.

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Diablo 3’s stat-handling and levelling was total garbage and not at all enjoyable. I certainly hope Blizzard is smarter than that this time around.

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D2 stats --> Enough str for gear, rest in vit. Or if shield build, enough for 75% block.

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If doing a half combat PvE for counter measure against immunes more str or dex for weapon damage. If planning a PvP then more dex, vit to endure and some more nrg to sustain casts. Just because you played the game on one aspect doesn’t mean everyone had to.

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Being a tad melodramatic don’t you think

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The truth is. It’s not done yet. Save the criticism until it’s getting closer to done.

In an interview with Rhykker, a dev said they wanted to remove any ‘maths’ in itemization. STR, INT, DEX etc is gone. Instead its just attack and defence, plus a couple of affixes.

I’m trying to remain positive. I want to see what news we get later on today. If they’re simplifying loot, I’m out. That’s a dealbreaker. However, if they’re offering depth and complexity in the builds and abilities, okay I’ll take it. But this is important to me. D3’s issues didn’t start and end with it’s art direction.

Because right now I get the feeling Blizzard thinks ‘make D3 dark, problems solved’.

I have a lvl 29 Pally in D2. Just a low level dude. He’s using this.

Rusthandle
Grand Scepter
One-Hand Damage: 15 To (34-35)
Required Level: 18
Required Strength: 37
Durability: 60
Mace Class - Fast Attack Speed
+50-60% Enhanced Damage
Adds 3-7 damage
+100-110% Damage to Undead
8% Life stolen per hit
+1 To Paladin Skill Levels
Magic Damage Reduced by 1
+3 To Thorns (Paladin Only)
+1-3 To Vengeance (Paladin Only)

Thats what I want for D4. Thats not complicated, thats not hard to understand. But there is a complexity there. There are things there you’ll look at and make decisions on. Its not about blowing minds, or spreadsheets. Its about pausing to look at what you’ve just looted and thinking about it.

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No. What are you talking about? This is a loot game. The loot is one of the most important things to get right, especially considering the games lineage.

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Pretty much. Or slap in some oldschool features, no matter how poorly they implement them and be happy.
In many ways it looks like they yet again are starting from scratch with D4. But why start from scratch when you can build on previous experience? If D2 end up having more depth than D4 then it’ll be quite the parody.

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I’m the target audience I guess. I hate PoE because it feels like you have to get a calculator out to use your items efficiently. Looking at huge spreadsheets of info on third party clients (Path of Building) isn’t remotely fun. You should be able to look at an item and know if its good or not. Nobody wants to play a complicated game. Just want to hop in kill some stuff and log off. They can find another way to keep builds diverse without creating paragraph long item descriptions.

I just want to say that just because for you (the hardcore PoE/D2 playerbase) having D4 be this super diverse in depth game seems in your heads like it would be your perfect version. It’s actually a negative in the average casual players eyes. Blizzard wants to market this game to 1M-3M players in the first month. Not 50-100K hardcore players.

I had a friend who played D3 extensively. He saw POE’s skill tree and instantly was turned off. He never tried the game again!

complicated to create diversity through huge mod lists on items does not necessarily create an overall positive experience for the players. In fact imo its a negative.

I have other issues with poe. The fact that I could kill final boss well undergeared is one. Sure it took a few dozen respawns but, the boss doesn’t reset. Just do a little damage, respawn, rinse,repeat. Anyway, that’s off topic. D4 is still in early stages, I hope they do more with stats. I think this is being blown out of proportion though. Imagine for example a chest piece. In testing the stats may say something like +100 to main stat. Is that really different from coding the gear to say str,int,dex. Like I said it’s still in development. Many of the stats shown are probably placeholders. This is sadly why it’s still a long way from release.

Depth and complexity is not necessarily the same thing.
Surely you cannot consider D2 system to be too complex for the average player? It’s actually fairly simple. They can start there, they don’t have to go full PoE style.

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Which can be easily summarized = more DPS.

Well said. Also, a weapon without +x skills = garbage.

True im fine with a balance. Diversity is important. If every max lvl druid is using the same everything the game is poorly designed. Hopefully it doesnt come down to that.

edit
I came across as people trying to turn D4 into PoE. I want diversity without items being confusing. But where do you draw that line?

Nah, its not that simple. For example, do you have a thorns build, yes or no? If yes, then you’re good. If no, would you change to thorns? Is that worth the trouble, seeing as this is a low level weapon and the damage will drop off.

This is a random example of a build defining, or build changing item you could either ignore, or would change the course of your progress in the game.

Its not just “more dps”. There’s a decision you need to make here. Not a complicated one, but you are still required to think about this. Its not just a question of “does it have an orange name? THEN WEAR IT”

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Yes, it is more dps because your character can kill faster than usual. Even faster when you are using thorn.

At least in D3, instead of simply increase your thorn damage, it makes your thorn now dealing AOE damage. This is what we call, a real build changing item.

Yes, I agree. You’re right, still a looong way away from release and lots can change. And we’re probalby going to get lot more info later today.