Yes, it is really a question, since you seemed to take issue with the way I framed my statement that Barbarians are unhappy about the changes in a way that led me to believe that you were not unhappy, hence why I asked but it seems we’re on the same page, so no harm no foul
I’m 100% with you, the fact that they’re using this excuse - which is what it is, an excuse - is, quite honestly, disingenuous. Where was this wait and see mentality when, for example, the changes were made to Wizards that made Starpact so strong? Or even with the very recent changes to the new Crusader set?
I don’t even begrudge Crusaders or Wizards these buffs, but it just boggles the mind how they fail to see the systemic way Barbs have been failed, again, and again, and again. Heard the warcry indeed
Once again, it isn’t just that, you have to account other things to. What you’re doing is just like solving the equation nx = sin x by eliminate n in both sides so you can get x = six = 6.
I’m not an expert here, So maybe free or Ulma can explain it better but if you really need an answer here’s my explainations for the additional loss in damage:
The build’s only effective if you can one-shot trash to proc Bloodbath regularly. Now you reduce the damage by 1/3, you kill the trash 3 times slower, Bloodbath procs 3 times slower, with the 3 times damage nerf, now Bloodbath deals 9 times less damage, so 89% damage loss from Bloodbath, not just 66%. Beside, when Bloodbath doens’t proc fast enough, main Rend will have to attack more to deal more damage to compensate for it, so the time need to kill the trash will increase by more than 3 times.
You don’t kill the trash fast enough, Rampage cannot stack, so about 20-25% more total damage lost, as many of others pointed out.
When you have to rely on manual rend to deal damage, you’ll have to stack Area damage, too, so some affixes are lost from items, which means less damage or defenses. Less defenses also means you’ll have to take more time to dodge from monsters to avoid dying,
And there might be more than that. But all above means the damage reduction’s not just 67%, but about 70-75%, or 3.5-4 times less damage, so 10-12 rifts loss’s totally understandable.
Rend deals 67% less damage, so you leave your build exactly as it is and go down 7 tiers. Now mobs have 67% less health. You kill them at the same rate and get the same uptime on Bloodbath and Rampage.
My response to Ulma is just that: The trash in the 140 clear is insane for Bloodbath and Rampage:
Grotesques effectively give you 4 stacks of both, Mothers give multiple stacks (more the slower they die themselves), even some Zombies will give you 2 stacks (I don’t know what percentage leaves behind a torso)
I one-keyed 114 at P1874 (16k mainstat, gems att 11X-12X). Three floors (a bad pandemonium with useless power, ok desert and then festering filled with impalers but a nice 3-pack conduit). Guardian was eskandiel. >2 mins remaining
Okay-ish gear but far from good. Low/no augments, etlitch amu, badly rolled shoulders (AD from WW build), WW% in boots. Used 5WW/3CC, mortick, zodiac, BoM, good Istvans (cdr/dmg, high dmg rolls both). Diamonds all over and still proc NoS multiple times and died once due to impalers (and despite etlitch). In this specific run, FoT would not add anything of value.
Skills: wind shear, bloodbath, Into the Fray, veteran’s warning, wrenching smash, Insanity. Passives: ruthless, rampage, NoS, Boon.
At my level it’s around at least 8-10 gr behind chantodo (rough estimate since chantodo I have 21k mainstat but I’m also a lot better at playing it). Finishing off elites is impossible with rend even at that low level, you really need to drag them along.
My feeling is that it’s the best setup for low-mid paragons. CoE instead of BoM at high probably.
CC adds 55% dmg and around 28% dr. Full WW + CoE/BoM/PoC would be 200% burst damage (50% average) and 50% dr (IP), harder to manage cooldowns but better healing.
Everyone here already understands what you’re saying; that if you give me darkpotato’s exact rift on live and it is played well with the IB Bloodbath / Windshear build, the live build can clear it on 133 in more or less time.
That’s been your argument all along and as I explained before it’s still completely irrelevant.
Because Darkpotato’s 140 map could have obviously also been cleared at the 144 level in PTR.
When the build has the damage to chunk down a bunch of elites using grotesques and zombies and just pop a condiit to finish all the elites off, the cieling is very high.
Not to mention that his boss was pure single target and Hamelin + power would still be ideal for a top end clear because manual Rends still work with AD.
So all this arguing about live being able to clear that specific rift, or one like it, on 133 aren’t really helping your case.
I’m still waiting for all the awesome footage of you on 133 dealing all this great rift clearing damage though. Guess we’ll be waiting forever.
On a side note I did some more experimenting last night and I am 100% sure I can get a 133 with WW right now (using a totally different method).
Which means the PTR cieling should have been even higher.
No. Rifts are not a straight more damage higher Grift clear progression. Not for any class. Especially not for a melee class. The slower you kill the more damage you take in a given time period. Your chances of getting one shotted increase. The lower the damage the more you have to avoid burst damage from large groups. Both rend and WW builds rely on large groups to progress. That’s why both builds fall apart at higher grifts. Before the nerf Rend could clear higher because it killed much faster. Now it doesn’t. It doesn’t even kill as fast as the old WW build unless you significantly alter what was being played on the PTR. If you don’t change your build WWrend is significantly worse than WW zodiac. WWrend before the nerf cleared ten grifts higher even for the average player without massive paragon. It couyld have cleared ten grifts higher for the top players too.
So technically you should be killing at the same speed if you lower the difficulty 7 GRs.
Let’s say 8 to be safe.
If each GR does indeed scale @ 17%, there’s no reason the Lamentation nerf should be more than 8 GRs unless something else changed.
It doesn’t matter that Whirlwind relies on AD/AS. You aren’t stacking those stats either way. Your Rend damage was reduced by 2/3. Your WW damage remains the same. Therefore your total damage is reduced by a little less than 2/3. But let’s just say 2/3 for practicality.
If you try clearing at the same speed you will get obliterated. That is the point. Rend no longer has the damage even at seven tiers below to avoid the burst damage. It just doesn’t. Get off the blackboard and into the field of battle and you will see.
And if he got an even better map, with even better mobs, even better pylons and had even better gear and cleared 145, then by the same logic the live version of that same build would clear that same insane rift in the same time at 138
Using the current numbers with either IB Bloodbath or BK Bloodbath with perfect gameplay, live Whirlrend with 0% Lamentation does not have the damage to do anything on 138.
There’s no map, no pull, no conduit good enough to carry it that high.
You’d end up spinning on top of yellows that never die and falling behind progression on everything in the game.
This is why your claims without video evidence on the actual live server are useless.
Now you are arguing “it feels different”. The entire point is, if the 2/3 nerf is acurate, then it should feel and perform the same (plus a little extra toughness)
The point is, why doesn’t Rend have the same damage scaled down 7-8 GRs?
What changed?
If GRs scale @ 17% per level like we believe, then it’s really just basic math. You lost 200% damage? That means you lost a 3x multiplier. That means you lost 7-8 GRs worth of damage. 3x damage gives 7-8 GRs if everything else remains constant. This is basic arithmetic.
I’m not going to argue players are experiencing 10+ GRs loss of damage. But it makes no sense unless Blizzard changed something else. Which if they ninja nerfed something on top of removing Rend’s only multiplier really makes me mad.
but it seems we’re on the same page, so no harm no foul
