Sunwuko outperforms PoJ on TR? Vengeful Wind is pointless?

When you take a look at the leaderboards, you can see that Sunwuko TR outperforms PoJ TR, which leads to the question: What is the point of the new set, if the only build you can use with it, is even worse than almost the same build with an old set (which also provides a lot of other builds). I was already wondering this when 2.6.7 patchnotes were released as a quick calculation revealed that the damage is lower on PoJ and you can even use more useful support legendaries with Sunwuko (i.e. Mantle of Channeling, Hexing Pants, Lefebvres Soliloquy). Of course with PoJ you don’t need to invest in RCR as much, but you benefit double if you do with Sunwuko + Captain Crimson Set, because of additional Damage Reduction.

I think the biggest mistake for the new set was to kill Sweeping Winds as a real source of damage or not really enabling it in the first place. With the removal of the Eye of the Storm instead of changing it to make it actually viable and no changes to kyoshiros soul (i.e. make the damage part of the legendary affix and buff it a little), Blizzard decided to not allow sweeping winds to deal any meaningful damage. If you consider this, the increase of the damage buff to Sweeping Wind on the Vengeful Wind Fist Weapon is absolutely pointless as it’s by far not enough to make Sweeping Winds viable. This also leaves PoJ with a vacant weapon and belt slot, which could be great for build flexibility. When you consider the options for the belts though, you are basically stuck with either Witching Hour or Captain Crimson (of course in combination with a ring of royal grandeur and either boots or legs of CC). While Witching Hour just doesn’t feel like a great option and really fitting to the build, CC actually locks a ring slot and more importantly completly removing any flexibility you might get by using ring of royal grandeur with a legendary in any slot instead of a PoJ set item (i.e. Mantle of Channeling, Hexing Pants, Lefebvres Soliloquy). Also, you don’t really need the RCR from CC with PoJ. While there are definetly more options for the vacant weapon slot, they again don’t really feel fitting for the build either. So please consider changing/buffing kyoshiros soul and/or (re-)introduce another sweeping winds legendary affix (i.e. Eye of the Storm or another legendary item without affix)

So the only usable damage source for PoJ at the moment we are left with is TR, which actually seems to perform worse than Sunwuko TR. I also read about an old Exploding Palm build with Tempest Rush, which sounded like a fun way to take advantage of the ALL damage buff on PoJ, but some testing revealed that it doesn’t work at the moment. I believe the reason for this is, that the damage of exploding palm is calculated when you apply exploding palm instead of when it actually explodes and since we only get the damage buff from PoJ while channeling TR with Sweeping Winds active, the buff is not applied to Exploding Palm. Maybe there are actually some other options to take advantage of the all damage buff of the set, im not seeing, but I think that all damage is a great resource to rely on when creating builds as it inherently enables flexibility, but that doesn’t seem to be the case for PoJ at the moment. I hope Blizzard can find a way to enable the use of the all damage increase for build diversity. Some interesting options can be found here: How to make Justice TR different than SWK TR

So I guess my point is: Make Sweeping Wind a viable damage source for PoJ and/or give us a options to use for the actual ALL damage increase from PoJ. Also maybe nerf or change TR for Sunwuko or buff it for PoJ, so that PoJ as a momentary skill specific set isn’t worse than the broader and more general sunwuko set.

What do you guys think about Sweeping Wind as a damage source? Do you have any ideas for making use of the all damage buff on PoJ? What other changes can be made to make PoJ not feel like a worse version of Sunwuko?

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I actually noticed this issue playing to today. I recognize the problem and made a post here:

It is kind of sad that they did not remember this problem from how Barbarians had it in the past.

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If Sweeping Wind is doing the bulk of DPS for PoJ, then it is Monk’s version of Wrath of Waste set then.

Just my 2 cents: If you take sunkeeper (30 elite dmg) and squirts (double dmg) you simply do doubled dmg to elites and since you be an elite hunter, poj outperforms swk on tr style of play. You need to get used to squirts then but you can get serenty and bam. And yes, the playstyle is similar so no problem for me to change game system a bit but as it is poj has more potential.

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SW is getting PoJ bonus of 151x plus VW bonus of 9x plus 13 stacks x 1.45x weapon damage. TR is getting PoJ 151x, Balance 7x, WKL 7x and Cesar’s 9x on a 3.9x weapon damage skill (plus the stacking effect of Flurry). SW is doing 11x LESS damage (once per second) than TR and TR can hit more than once per second. If you equip Kyoshiro’s Soul then SW can do 2.25x more damage but it is still less than TR.

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SW are practically useless in POJ set since it have no utilities and the base damage is weak. They need to buff up SW damages.

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Wholheartedly agree. Kyoshiro’s Soul should be 50 - 100% per stack of SW and the damage buff should be part of the legendary affix so it could be cubed. I would like a rework of Eye of the Storm to buff SW by x amount and to GREATLY buff the Cyclones of SW, while making the cyclones orbit you and to proc more frequently. They should also add a 2 hand weapon that buffs SW so that you can focus PoJ on TR damage or focus on SW damage. If you had a 2 hander cubed plus VW and something else (WKL for lightning damage comes to mind) plus EotS then you could run around with TR as a supporting skill or TR around with SW as a supporting skill.

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Agreed, If monk use Kyoshiro’s Soul in a pure SW build than it loose the ability to use the Crimson set. Blizzard need to “overshoot” SW damages by a massive margin.

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When you do the math, even though PoJ buffs everything while channeling TR, SW has 2 potential multipliers (x9 and x2.25), CS has 1 modifier (x7) and TR has 3 significant modifiers (x7, x7 and x9) and potentially 5 (x1.25 and x1.25 to everything) not including Flurry stacks. SW and CS need more supporting legendary items like Eye of the Storm rework, Staff of Kyro rework and Logan’s Claw rework?

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I think it’s a bit too much work for the Dev’s with a very skinny team looking after D3. SW build just need another damage multiplier aka Eye of the storm and buff up Vengeful Wind damages.

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Well they did something interesting with the new WKL buffing TR and CS, it would be nice for an item to buff CS and SW to bring it in line with other skills having multiple sources of multipliers.

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I like the speed and RCR with the new set. It’s a lot of fun, and I’ll be playing it in 19. Not everyone lives and dies over LOLboard performance by some no lifers.

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Thanks for your replies! I agreed with a lot you guys said and I really like the idea of adding another item with SW and CS buff, also a stack dependency would be nice to actually make use of the stack increase by vengeful wind other than giving some movement speed.

Another idea that came to my mind is to make us able to wear 6 piece PoJ with 4 piece Sunwuko (with RoRG of course) this would provide a 13000% weapon damage source from sweeping winds and could be done by adding a belt or weapon or bracer to either PoJ or Sunwuko (I would prefer PoJ for more flexibility in general). Another option would be to move the bonus from Sunwuko to PoJ because it’s completly useless for Sunwuko since it doesn’t buff sweeping winds and then think of a useful 4 piece bonus for sunwuko (i.e. regenerate 3 spirit per second and/or gain 3% attackspeed for each stack of sweeping winds).

As for people saying the set is fun and don’t mind the leaderboards. I also agree that the set is fun and for me this thread isn’t about making PoJ the best monk set or even the best TR set. Actually it’s more or less the opposite. I want the set to move away from using TR as damage source or atleast provide some other options, since we already have it (doing better) with Sunwuko. Also, i really like the changes to the TR items in general. This isn’t about hating the changes or hating Blizzard or whatever, I try to provide some feedback on how I think the set could be more useful and even more fun and also to make design choices align in one cohesive build. Also I like to be inspired by everyone elses ideas.

Also my main point, even if I can see that it didn’t really convey below all the text I wrote, was that the (Monk) changes from PTR to Live feel a bit incohesive, because on the one hand they remove an SW item and leave another bad one untouched and then on the other hand they buff the damage on vengeful wind, which already was the best SW item we had. Then there is the set, where the damage buff was changed from buffing SW to all damage, which at first glance is great as it gives more flexibility, but then it is sadly ruined by only enabling it during chanelling of TR when SW is active, so there is only very limited use for the all damage buff. Also a lot of the set bonuses still feel like they were designed for SW as a damage source instead of TR. For example giving us all the runes for SW, whats the point in that when we only have TR as a viable damage source and the only useful SW rune for a TR-build is Inner Storm for the spirit regeneration and maybe Master of the Wind for some freezing, but not really since it takes 3 seconds to freeze and then it only occurs every 3 seconds, so a lot of downtime. The same goes for the increase of the SW size while channeling TR. I mean sure it looks cool, but it doesn’t really go beyond that. This was clearly designed with the intend of having SW deal the damage, but then they ruin it completly by removing or not changing the legendaries accordingly.

So again, my point isn’t that PoJ is too weak or whatever, my point is that the design of the set doesn’t really fit the changes to legendaries and that even though it could provide a lot of flexibility, it actually is very limited due to only applying the damage buff while channeling and therefore not allowing any other skill/damage source to be used.

And then of course I complain a little about that one and only viable playstyle (as of now) of the new set being even worse than the same playstyle with another, old set, which also provides a lot of other builds.

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I’m not sure of this, they did rework quite a few items for the barbarian this patch.

I think that it may be possible to get some items reworked for better play. We may not have many devs on D3 anymore, but they do seem to really care about game improvements, I’ve not been playing long, only a couple years on the console and about 1 year on PC, but during that time the classic devs have done more to improve the game than the D3 team before was doing.

If we can work together to build a list of things that we would like to see, it is possible that we could get some things to improve the viability of and fun while playing the monk.

I think it would be cool too see PoJ someway synergize the storm damage to work together better, so we don’t have to pick one of our storms to deal the damage.

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