Congratulations! You have proven that you literally have no idea what you are talking about!
Employers have a “freedom” to be free from unionized labor. If they can successfully operate by refusing to work with those that choose to unionize, they are free to.
You have shown us, here, that you are an incredibly biased and hypocritical individual with constantly-moving goalposts. It is becoming very hard to take you seriously on any topic of real-world meaning.
Though I think 17 THOUSAND comments was a good tip off about that as well…
No, that is not their freedom, that is limiting others. Their freedom is not lessened, because other people are organizing.
Are an employer free to not agree to any terms made by a union? Of course.
Are the unions and everyone else free to do their best (within legal means) to make it hard for such employers to do business, and hire other employees? Of course.
Union busting comes in many forms. They should not be able to prevent a union from organizing, they should not be able ignore that a union has been formed, or refuse to meet with a union their employees are members of. But again, whether they agree to any terms set by a union afterward, is a different matter. That is not union busting, that is simply negotiating.
And they should of course, in all cases, follow the law. Which might very well include not hiring or firing people specifically based on union membership, or lack thereof.
In the end, the goal of strong unions is to become impactful enough, that employers cant ignore or circumvent them. Including being unable to find qualified employees who want to work for you, for example. And hopefully plenty of customers refusing to use such companies. For some countries, that is a long road ahead though. But you have to start somewhere. Luckily, we know it is possible, as it has been done before.
If it works, it works. I can’t/won’t argue that at all. Good if it does. Here hopes that it does, but life is life and people need to realize that unions aren’t the only or end all solution. It may sound good in thought or on paper, but reality is a whole different monster. For those that have no idea what they are getting themselves into, they are just setting themselves up for disappointment when it doesn’t work… for them.
Of course. All people from the lowest Johnny Punchclock to the highest Johnny Iamtheboss is a part of the great capitalist machine. It’s all about making money, not being your friend. What do you want to get paid with? Money or pats on the head?
Thank you for pointing that out. That’s another situation. What if you want to get hired by Company X and don’t want to be a part of The Union? All you want to be is the monday through friday 9am - 5pm employee that works for a paycheck, be it a nice fatty or not.
What do you think will happen? The union will leave you alone or harass you to join them?
Good for them if they don’t harass you and let you work in peace… But what if they don’t? Yes, no one is forcing to work for that company, but want if want to and it’s the union that is making life hell for you not the actual job itself (job duties/responsibilities, commute, co-workers, management, subordinates, etc.)? Then what?
Well, to the extent some workers with actual drive and skills, as well as a desire to be uncontrolled by a union, they are welcome to do that, and in many cases, do.
I believe that any laws that interfere with the ability of an employer to refuse to engage with unionized labor interferes with the freedom of contract.
As far as customers who only buy from unionized shops…well, I have never felt much sympathy for the fool. I try to buy and work with only un-unionized labor.
I feel far more pathos for the business owner, and respect the intellect, devotion, and moxy it takes to run such a business than I do labor which invests nothing but its time, which is, outside of work, not worth much at all.
I doubt any significant amount of people think they are. Unions are just one of many steps in the right direction.
In the labor market they certainly are one of the center pieces however.
Indeed.
That should definitely be possible. It certainly is where I live.
However, you should still be covered by the deals the unions make.
Some of my colleagues have not been member of the unions on my workplace, and yeah, they very much leave them alone.
Try to replace the local leaders of the union. File a complain to the larger organization. As well as to your boss.
Harassments in the workplace definitely also happens without unions.
Sure, but if the unions represent a significant majority, those lone wolves wont be able to hold much negotiating power, nor replace the union members.
Luckily it does not have to be either/or. Plenty of business owners are sensible, intelligent people, worthy of respect. And some are not. Representing humanity broadly I guess.
Where I live, the employer organizations are often defenders of unions, because they understand all the benefits this system offers both employers and employees. They are way more afraid of politicians trying to regulate things in the absence of unions.
A significant amount? In the long game, probably not. Up until that point, it sure seems like it from time to time.
Collective bargaining/me too (before the whole movement with the same name) clause. So yes, even the non-union workers get a piece of that pie too. Or, depending on the job/employer(s) different union workers will also benefit as well, usually to a lesser extent. Someone mentioned a teacher’s union. Use them as an example. A different union, say maybe maintenance, will benefit in some way when the teacher’s benefits from an agreement/settlement, etc., but again… usually to a lesser extent. Teachers could get a 3-4% bump in pay and the maintenance workers get 1-2% bump in pay. Something along those lines.
Well, that’s good. They should leave them alone, unless they are trying to cause problems, then that’s a different story. I won’t get into that nonsense.
Indeed. Complain about the ‘golden’ or ‘chosen’ or ‘untouchable’ employee and it’s doomsville for you. That’s any place though, union or corporation. Or in my case, not take a raise or a promotion. Yeah, go from not doing anything wrong to the direct opposite overnight. Sometimes the rasie/promotion isn’t worth it in the short or long run. The increase in pay doesn’t come anywhere near the increase in time/responsibilities. Yep, union jobs too.
And that’s how the “leaders of the world world view” works, screw the people, they’re just there to be stepped on for profit, and you’re right, it’s a big reason why the world sucks.
I don’t care to look up data points right now, but I’d be dead set on betting on the data supporting unions as being an overall benefit for workers. Businesses wouldn’t fight unions so hard otherwise.
Consumers absolutely benefit. Better wages in an area means more spending money, means local business growth, means virtuous economic cycle. It’s about spreading the money out to the community instead of one person’s pockets at the top, which is an economic depressor.
Unions are absolutely worth it. I’ve been on both sides. Non-union is misery and only benefits the guy exploiting you for whatever they think they can get away with.
I don’t completely disagree with you, so don’t take anything I say the wrong way.
Unions are a hit/miss for benefitting people. I’ve heard mixed reviews from people who have been in one.
Better wages can also mean less on the bottom line. When employees start to push and get higher wages, the costs of things go up as well. In addition, businesses will find ways to not have to pay those wages. McDonalds is a perfect example. Those people wanted their $15+ an hour, they got it but now many locations are eliminated team members in favor of kiosks. Instead of my town having 2 people running front counter, they have 0. They’re looking into more automated methods in the kitchen to reduce the number of grill staff.
Also, yes, people earning more money will go spend it but it’s not always local businesses. E-commerce is booming because of this and the legalization of recreational drugs will consume a lot of that income too.
So yes, unions can help people make more money but it can also help people who do not deserve a certain amount… get that amount. I’ve seen a lot of useless people making what some other hard working people make due to standardization.
I’d consider that a very good thing. Automate the things that can be automated. Increase productivity and efficiency.
And yes, support people to acquire new skills for other jobs.
If they are useless, then the employer is failing at their job by not firing them.
Which some people would lead me to believe was impossible, as employers are supposedly infallible beings while unions are uniquely flawed
