Just a question but was the hullaballoo in the GD thread last night my fault?
I’m asking because I got the feeling that I embarrassed myself (without realizing it) and some of our great posters in the exchanges that took place last night.
I apologize for that.
I’m thinking the thread didn’t have the effect I expected and it all went back to the way I started the thread. If I could do it over again, I would leave any mention of Barbs out of the opening post.
I will offer this, if you folks want to abandon the thread because of what it devolved into last night, then I wouldn’t fault you and I’ll just keep my feedback to things I understand on the DH forums.
Man, this sounds like I’m throwing myself a pity party so let me change that vibe if I can.
There was a ton of good feedback in the thread before the fiasco that took place last night and I would really like it if we could get back to that and you guys would too.
So how should we go about doing that if the thread is even worth saving now?
Not your fault at all. Posting anything in the General Forum has a chance of devolving into a crap pile of troll food. You did a great job of trying to bring it back on topic several times
Really kind of irritated me when we got told that we didn’t know how to post comprehensive ideas and advocate for our class. Seems every PTR we’ve come up with things that would really help our class, and we are ignored. Our best theory crafters rarely post anymore, they’ve just given up. You can only bang your head against the wall for so long before you become numb.
You did get a post up there with 160+ comments – people read it, it brought attention to the issue, so in my eyes, it was successful.
Nothing got too out of hand, no threats, no bans, no subpoenas – I wouldn’t worry about it. Based on this post, it just looks like you’re trying to do the right thing.
I will say that if you’re trying to have a substantive discussion, that’s always easier to do on the individual class forums.
You guys have a bunch of threads with lots of good ideas:
I think you just need to kind of go through these, consolidate and condense.
On the one hand there’s the argument, “well, we shouldn’t have to do this, it’s Blizzard’s job”. To which, I agree-- you shouldn’t have to do it!
But, on the other hand, the devs are a bit clueless when it comes to balance, and I think it really helps to have a fairly coherent list of requests. If they look through your proposed changes and they see that one guy is saying “it’s more efficient to facetank mobs like other classes, make DH better at that” and another guy is saying “DH needs to attack from a distance to preserve the class fantasy”, then Blizz just gets confused. (For the record, I am definitely on the “attack from a distance” side).
So I think it really is helpful if you can come up with one, consolidated list of stuff, that a large majority of the prominent players in your community (you, dmkt, Varadia, Iria, etc) can sign off on, essentially saying “yeah, this list is good, it makes sense”, rather than having a bunch of disparate voices.
Speaking of which: where is Iria? I feel like you guys need a good number-cruncher right now, and I’ve always been impressed with his knowledge level.
Again, good luck, and let me know if there’s anything I can help with.
Even if it’s not all positive, conversation about topics is a good thing. Just hope the right people take notice.
If all else fails, it’s now 06.02 in Australia, I have no doubt that a lot of GD threads will soon get buried by people screaming that the PTR isn’t open yet
Without attempting to derail the thread, the common misconception from the GD thread is that we’ve never organized nor created consolidated proposals for the DH class.
This is far from the truth. Just because other communities didn’t pay much attention to it doesn’t mean it did not exist. What’s happening now (which is a good thing) is yet another attempt at the same thing that most of us vets here have tried to do over the years. You and some others are just now recognizing that we have good threads. It’s always been here, with many well thought out threads that are long gone in the old forum or PTR phases. If anything, I like the fact that Idolis put DH’s out there on the GD forums, though with that, comes a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions as most DH vets generally don’t post on GD.
The only thing we have not done throughout these years is go to Nev directly, but that’s sorta like softcore lobbying to an extent and shouldn’t be encouraged nor necessary IMO.
Not trying to be a negative Nancy, but I’d appreciate it if we left out the “here’s how you organize ideas” vibe out of it. The vets in each class forum are not incompetent. Every class forums has had people that’d done this over the years.
While per usual I’m always in support of thread proposals, there’s very little evidence to suggest that spending weeks working on yet another consolidated dissertation is going to make a notable difference. At this point, they acknowledge we’re not in a good spot “in general”. They’ve either read our feedback over the years or they didn’t and have already made up their minds on how they’re going to proceed with DH changes by summer time.
To reel it back in, I commend you Idolis for your valid effort.
I’d cut some of the barb community a little slack…they got bombarded by Table Guy and others with a nerfing objective when they finally got some love thrown their way with ww/rend…I’m guessing still a little sensitive seeing as how the nerf police are back again already…
But kudos man for tossing it out there in GD - like they say “any publicity is good publicity!”
I’m also glad that the thread turned back into a constructive discussion due to our collective efforts. I won’t discount the effect Rage, Free, and Shark efforts have had either.
Once everyone was able to get past undeserved criticism that the DH’s that have been on the DH boards for much longer than myself weren’t capable to offering their own proposals or, I think, more accurately that we needed to be told how to do it, and they were able to get past the way I opened our thread. It became a lot more civil.
I can’t tell you folks how much I appreciate that.
I’ve been up since about 4 o’clock in the afternoon yesterday and it’s 6:30 in the evening now here so it’s a wonder I’m still coherent.
But anyway, I just wanted to say, thanks everyone. And I really mean that. You folks are awesome and thanks again for allowing me back into this great community.
I hope I’m hitting the right tone here, as I’m not a native speaker. If something reads to harsh: Just assume that I want to support you.
I have to admit: When i came back to the forums after a few hours and saw that “huge” new post counter on that topic, my first thought was “uh-oh, something went veeeery wrong there”.
I don’t understand everything that was written there. Probably I missed something about that “table guy”, and how exactly barbs got their buff, and what they did, and what some other guy did or did not, and who did or did not wanted some buffs or nerfs or whatever. I also don’t understand why some posts got buried there …
To be honest: there was one posting from you where I thought “ok, that wasn’t exactly necessary (or the best way to reply)”, but it was understandable (probably out of frustration or something like that?), and only a few posts later you apologized honestly, so everything is fine.
Sometimes it’s better to sleep on it for a night, before you post something on the internet. Because nonverbal communication and stuff. Sometimes it’s hard to do so, and it’s not the end of the world if it happens sometimes. And it’s also not the end of our efforts to get some buffs for the DH.
So, you did not goof, and it was not your fault that the topic went crazy for a little time. That part was a hot tempered discussion, that’s all. Keep on going - we need more people arguing for some improvements for the best class in the game.
You’re right, and if I gave that impression, you have my apologies.
But I want to offer a piece of criticism–or advice if it’s something about which you’re already aware–and if this comes across as harsh, again, forgive me, because I’m only trying to help: You’ve got to step it up.
What I mean is that threads with comprehensive feedback are great, but you need to centralize them in one place, with a single, comprehensive game design philosophy (that aligns realistically with the devs), and you have to come up with concrete, specific fixes. Someone–or a few someones–need to be in charge to moderate, so to speak, the good ideas from the bad. You need to polish it all and present it in GD as a unified, cohesive community.
Even then, that may not be enough. We Barbs built a website, then reached out to YouTubers, Dfans, Icy Veins, and any other outlet we could to generate coverage and publicity. That really caught the attention of the developers, and when they responded, they had two names in particular to zone in on: mine and Rage’s.
The Barb Buff Proposal was a community effort and endeavor, but by acting as spokespersons and shouldering the lion’s share of the actual work, Rage and I were able to communicate directly with Blizzard.
Again, this is just my two cents, and I apologize if this seems out of line or ultra-prescriptive. I’m only trying to help. If you feel I’m out of line, let me know.
Trying to push for a spokesman isn’t the right way to go about it, really, as it’s unavoidable having people who approach the class differently. For example, some may wonder who the hell I am since I’ve not been particularly active here in a while largely due to class stagnation. Nonetheless, I’d have my own takes on things I want to see or things I don’t. It also doesn’t mean that if I am playing the game and bump into someone wanting help with the class that I’m not going to make some suggestive nudges to either solve their problems or put them on a path to better understanding future hurdles they’ll encounter. Heck, some may even feel inclined to look at my paragon level and just be like, “Shut up, you don’t count because you don’t play enough!” when all I’ll really say is that I have my limits on repetition and all that really changes is just bigger numbers. Plus I have a relative disdain of the meta concept and usually play solo if not with friends.
Of course, let’s quickly consider a number of immediately related topics:
Do we generate enough Hatred?
Do generators deal enough damage to justify their use?
Are spenders too costly?
Should we be using a metric of Hatred Cost/Damage%/Expected # of Targets for balance?
Is the Dawn/Vengeance reliance really for our benefit?
Responses here could range anywhere from, “I like everything how it is, so suck less noob!” to “We have problems in all of these fields and they do need attention ASAP!” Who would be right? Who would be wrong? And all of this before diving deeper into the intricacies of runes, passives, and gear.
One of the controversies I butt heads over back in the day was the implication that this was supposed to be the “high skill class” and perceived flaws were redirected as a jab at my personal skill level or those who felt similarly. If you couldn’t play glassy, you were simply just doing it wrong, and this was well before unavoidable damage or the eventual abandonment of DEX > Dodge for the ability to actually take a hit. At least up to a point in the GR curve. I’ve also never been a fan of snapshotting, gear swaps, or even numlock cheese.
Since then, not a whole lot has changed in terms of power. New things came about, sure, but more in the universal sense than showing DHs love implicitly. I pointed out in the GD thread that we had historically been on the receiving end of the some of the game’s more heavy-handed nerfs over time. Someone mentioning MFD/Frailty reminded me of all the issues we had with Sever in the past as another example I didn’t touch on. Our mere existence has to led things like gold chests no longer being guaranteed in certain areas (not that these aren’t pretty lulz nowadays) or changes in Z-axis code so we couldn’t as readily take advantage of height/terrain differences. I remember when simultaneous explosions of Spike Trap could share a buffed crit rate, actually making the skill useful at one point. To be blunt, us “figuring things out” has probably pissed Blizzard off handily over the years.
Otherwise, I’d rather push concept over hard numbers. To an extent, GR clears handle the latter. They can then look to what people are or aren’t using in ranking clears (and probably beyond). Forming an opinion of what’s popular and what isn’t shouldn’t be the difficult part. What it is they more likely lack is what to do with the lesser skills and items. They need to know what players would like to see here in order to build a new play style around it.
Knowing that sweeping overhauls are probably unlikely, the next best thing is to probably ask them what skills they intend to focus on for “our turn” and what we would like as a result. If they actually have no intention of adjusting Spike Traps or Caltrops, it does no good having anyone proposing a set or legendaries rooted in their use. On the other hand, if they said, “We’re thinking about making the next set focus on Elemental Arrow, what do you want to see to make it and related runes useful?” then we have a viable springboard. Without something like that, we’re basically just spinning our wheels.
I strongly disagree. Not all opinions are valid, and not all voices carry the same weight. If you want to succeed at a buff proposal, you need community backing and participation, yes, but you also need someone front and center that really understands the game, someone who can filter the bad suggestions from the good.
I’m speaking from experience in actually getting some heavy-duty buffs for my class, so what I’m suggesting isn’t without merit or precedent.
I hear you, but some of those responses aren’t valid. You can collect and analyze data from leaderboards and pinpoint exactly where a class struggles. For Barbs, it was damage output, plain and simple (as it is, I suspect, for most classes), and it all revolved around our supporting legendaries.
If you look at Blizzard’s balance post, there’s no question that DHs need some major buffs, and if you understand the game and basic game design, you know it boils down to a few factors:
Damage output
Relevance of supporting legendaries
It may also have a lot to do with the other factors you mentioned, but I suspect (and I may be wrong–not a DH expert here!) that if increased major damage multipliers for most builds and updated some supporting legendaries, you would fix 90% of your problems.
To be clear, I’m not suggesting that every contentious opinion get shouted down, but I am suggesting that there has to be some quality control in the process of selecting which specific ideas best represent realistic solutions to problems. When Rage and I had these discussions with the Barb community, we took every suggestion into consideration, but at the end of the day, we–with the help of the community via excellent discourse–had to sift the good from the bad and decide what to run with.
I’m with you on snapshotting and numlock tricks, and a good buff proposal will find a way to address those concerns, but if the developers intend for a build to be glassy, you probably shouldn’t expect them to walk it back and head entirely in the other direction.
Many said the same of Barbs before did the work we did and got the buffs we wanted. Rend went from a useless, trash-tier skill to our strongest slot on the bar as a direct result of our work. Many of the item updates were pulled directly from our proposal. Y’all can accomplish the same thing! I believe in you!
I hope my suggestions, including the points where we disagree, are taken in the spirit of a larger discussion about how to get DHs some big, juicy buffs, because that’s my only intent here.
Excellent point. I think they’re doing both: They have internal ideas, but they’re also looking to class communities to see what people want, and what suggestions rise to the top.
As an example of this, Barbs have been asking for a viable Primary Skill/Frenzy build for years. Whenever there’s a discussion about what kind of build or set Barbs want, that suggestion inevitably crops up from many different posters. And what kind of set did we get this patch? Not a coincidence.
A strong, unified DH proposal will absolutely be taken seriously by the devs.
Perhaps I should put it another way: I’m not keen on representation being a popularity contest.
We already saw that back in the day on the old forum when they did the meet’n’greets. If you didn’t fall in with the club of regulars, you may as well have not existed. People propped up in this manner then being the gatekeepers of worthiness in feedback will simply get a no from me.
Nonetheless, it’s hardly new to observe that more hardcore players think they know what’s best for a game, everyone else be damned. I tend to consider myself more midcore, but am also mindful of friends on the more casual slant I see come and go for various reasons that can often be fixed, and sometimes in ways that infuriate those same hardcores. Basically, I have a hard time taking anyone who slings phrases like “dumbing down” or other various welfare rhetoric seriously because there is nuance to be found in making games fun for the individual and then fun for as many as possible. I’m not saying you’ve done this, either, just that it has been a “critique” from people about the game over time.
It’s further why I assert that Blizzard needs to assign an impartial representative from their own pool of employees for each class. Make sure they know the class and relatively enjoy it. Let them then pose the questions to the community, get our responses, consolidate as appropriate, and separate that proverbial wheat from the chaff. I think you’re letting your Barb experience get to your head a bit, there, and may even be overselling the efficacy of your campaign to get Blizzard’s attention. And if it turns out we have to jump through all these stupid little hoops just to get senpai to notice us, then we’ve got problems going on beyond the game proper.
I’m with you 100% on this. In fact, our approach to looking out for players of all levels of engagement aligns. But choosing community spokespeople isn’t about popularity. It should boil down to the quality of their contributions–and potentially how much they contribute.
Who knows the most about the class? Who really knows the ins and outs of its builds and mechanics, its strengths and weaknesses? Who has written build guides and taught new players the ropes? Who contributes? Look for those people.
Never gonna happen even though I agree with you.
I can’t stress this enough: be realistic. D3 is in the hands of Classic Games. They’re not appointing reps, much less dedicating all their time to this game.
I assure you I’m not. And the conversations I had with Nev–often about the proposal we put together–underline that point. Read the proposal, specifically the List 2 suggestions on Rend, the Wastes set, Fjord Cutter, and Remorseless, and then look at the buffs we received last patch.
Yes, you probably need to be as thorough and public as we were, and yes, I wish that wasn’t the case. But here’s the bottom line: If you want buffs bad enough, do what it takes to get them.
Understood, but it’s being overshadowed by the next thing you said.
Unfortunately, you’re doing it again.
I specifically stated over and over that we’ve done proposals with all information consolidated in one thread.
You said you were active in each PTR. Do you remember the PTR feedback forum in December 2015? DMKT was that spokesperson that rallied all information pertaining to DH’s, what we wanted, what needed to happen, and why. Not only did you basically have every DH in the community back it, but you also had players from other classes back it as well (since it was in PTR feedback).
It was the most popular thread on the board, by a significant margin. The result? Not a single thing came out of that.
There’s been notable attempts from TastySoup, VocaloidNyan, Iria, DMKT, RedCell, Hebalon and a few others, unfortunately lost in the old forums. There hasn’t been many serious attempts since the new forums in July, but you can’t blame people for letting it go after not seeing the fruits of their efforts after investing so much time into it.
They didn’t for years. I can’t say that nothings ever coming. I have no idea what the devs are planning for the class in the summer, but the idea of continuing to “submit” dissertation after dissertation for a non-competitive hack n’ slash ARPG isn’t appealing.
