Simple compromises for solo play

Id rather start with GRifts. They matter more tbh.
But it is not like we need to start with one or the other. All these solutions, maybe except follower buffs, should be reasonably easy to do.

Though, follower buffs would also serve to make the follower more interesting, so that extra effort would be worth it imo.

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Same XP for everyone - then why have any buffs at all? It would essentially be the same thing.

Agree with the bounty mats increase.

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No it wouldn’t be the same thing. If you take the XP buff away, some people will complain that they were nerfed, and they would be correct. If you give everyone the XP buff nobody was nerfed.

Now, I think it would be completely reasonable to nerf XP gain in general, because D3 goes so ridiculously fast already, but it doesn’t really matter here. If giving everyone the XP buff is more palatable than taking the buff away for everyone, then giving it to everyone is just fine.

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If solo before got zero XP bonus and 4 man got +10% (made up number) before, and then solo got the same +10% the 4 man would feel nerfed.

We’ll just agree to disagree.

I cant prevent people from having misguided feelings. But no, the 4man would literally not have been nerfed. They will lvl just as fast as they did before.

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And so would solo, so where is the advantage to groups then? None.

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As it should be.
The advantage to groups would be the joy of playing in groups.

Anyway, not saying 4man groups shouldn’t have an advantage. Try to give them a ~10% power advantage or whatever. But even if the group buff was made the same for everyone tomorrow, groups would still have a power advantage measured in 500-2000% or something like that.

Some people seem to worry that solo would somehow get more efficient than groups. Considering the immense power difference there is now, that worry seems quite unnecessary. You could likely give solo a 500% dmg buff tomorrow, and 4man groups would still be significantly stronger.
If it ever happened that solo got ahead, or even on par, it would be easy to readjust the changes again.

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I’ve always felt that the advantage of grouping should be able to accomplish more because you are grouped, not something hard-coded into the game. Would a solo player ever be able to compete with a 4-man meta? 4 people working together will always be able to down a bigger boss, or do a higher GR level than a solo player.

In the end, I don’t aim to be on the leaderboards. The impact on me is more indirect, but still real. What it comes down to is something along the lines of the game being balanced around having high paragon and lots of augments and optimized gear to get to the interesting content. And the way you get all of those is to farm/grind. But because they’ve balanced the game around the amount of farming that groups are capable of, then the solo player is really just left banging their head against a wall.

The bounty issue, for instance. I have no problem with the fact that a 4 person group can complete all of the bounties in 1/4 the time. But, the rewards are also quadrupled. Think of it, these are “evil things in the world that the citizens of need taken care of”. They offer a cache to deal with those things. In real world terms it would be like offering a reward of $10k. Now 4 people do them and they come back and suddenly the townfolk are supposed to pony up 4x$10k in reward money? No, they hand over the original fee and tell the posse to deal with splitting it up themselves.

If 4 people were getting the work done in 1/4 the time for the same reward, that would be fine, but they are getting it done in 1/4 the time and getting 4x the reward. And the game is balanced around that.

The reward for doing 5 things that benefit a town should be fixed. If 4 people want to group up to do that faster, then the reward should be the same total offering from the townspeople as a solo player. From their perspective, the 5 ravaging beasts were dealt with and they have X amount of gratitude for that regardless of how it was done.

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But meaningless.

But why?

  • 500 paragon lvls: That’s almost nothing compared with the GRift-RNG.
  • 15 lvl higher gems: Same here and the difference wasn’t 15 lvls but 7.
  • higher chance for better gear: That’s theory crafting w/o any knowledge how the system works.

This wouldn’t change anything. The solely difference would be to compare between GR80 and 100 instead of GR130 and 150.

In this case there is no issue, b/c you’re able to use the bonuses as you want.

As you said: “it should be”. But is it realizable? I am not sure. Spontanously I couldn’t name a game with such a group vs. solo balancing, you mentioned.
This is almost impossible, if you ask me, b/c you cannot balance the efforts for forming groups. Well, there is matchmaking as mechanism. ELO-Rankings and similar systems to put the players together. But ask yourself how well those systems work.

Lets take a look into some examples regarding D3:

Imagine the effort of forming groups to play with would take around 10% of the time. This means the group advantage should bringt also roughly 10% more XP (just as an example value/metric).

But how this system looks for the ppl who need 50% of their time to form groups, e.g. caused by a META-Change? In this case, playing solo would be way more efficient.

Well, there’s no META-Change but a fixed kind of archetypes and a matchmaking system, similar to the dungeon finder of WoW. What is more efficient in WoW - the premade squad or the random group? In the very most of the time premade will dominate.
So just to eliminate the effort for forming groups will not eliminate differences of players.

Well now the ELO-System (or similar) takes place. This might work, but it is extremly expensive. But that’s not our issue.
At least, now we have a system, that doesn’t need to form groups manually and puts same player types together. Could this work in a Diablo game? Maybe yes. Well, if my rating climbs higher and higher, b/c I play in premade groups. The system shows its first weak point if I try to queue into the matchmaker. I couldn’t play well, b/c of missing communitcations etc.

So it isn’t that easy to equal solo vs. group w/o splitting the community just by automation. At the end the developer/publisher has to decide, if this (financial) effort is worth enough to be payed only to satisfy a few solo fanatics …

No, I act like everyone who hates inefficiency.
As I told you before. A casual player won’t care about the ladder. Maybe those players noticing paragons of others and maybe GR-Clears of others. But nothing more. They’re logging into the game and doing their stuff. They don’t care about efficiency at all - and that’s the reason the might have fun, no matter how they play - solo or in group.

I agree, but I don’t think that this is possible to realize.

Good point. Time have changed a bit. At least after reaching the limit of GR150 the groups can’t progress further. Also they didn’t got as much power creep for speed GRifts as soloist got. Between S12-15 groups got 3-4x more xp than soloists. In the last season the advantage was only at about 2-3x more xp. Also the power creep pushed all players to new paragon regions.

My first Example was about a SSF season that ends with ~2,5k paragon. If tripple that, i becomes 3,5k paragon group-wise. Today it’s “only” about twice as much xp in group. If I reach Paragon 4k solo it would become 5k Paragon with group bonuses.
Again a difference of 1k Paragon. But in S13 it was a damage advantage of around 40%, but if you compare 4k to 5k it is “only” about 25% more damage.

Well, thats not my mentioned 13%. But I don’t know how exactly the difference would be nowadays and I used a very averaging value for the S13 example. By myself I “only” was able to take the mentioned 87% advantage over all in S15. This in a time groups were able to get more than 3x as much xp as soloists did.

As for today groups aren’t able to hit such differences constantly. The advantage has lessen over the time.

Just wait a few seasons. I am sure there will be more power creep for solo that doesn’t affect group play that much and don’t forget about the GR-Cap groups can’t pass, even if they could.

Last season two classes were able to clear GR150 solo. Well, this was way more challenging than doing this in a group. But at least they cleared the same GR-Level as groups did.

Yep.

Thats naive.

Impossible due to the existence of non season.

These 10% is less than a GR-Level (17%). And don’t forget about the HP-Increase of 100% each additional player in group. Group play with only 10% power bonus would be very … entertaining. :stuck_out_tongue:

Thats just wrong. They’re getting 4x the reward, b/c they are 4 times faster than solo. But yes, I know what you mean. Every 5 bounty quests there should be one cache as reward but in a group of 4 it will be 4 caches.
I could deal with 3x as much caches for soloists. This would make solo bounties they more viable but would left some space for an group bonus.

Lets say I would do 3 complete runs solo. For each run I need round about 30 minutes. So after 90 minutes I would get a total reward of 45 caches, b/c I am solo getting 3x more caches.

Otherwise I would like to do bountied with a group. Aiming a group for 9 complete runs, to get those 45 caches, too. It will take 5 minutes to get the group running. Between each run we will lose 1 minute, b/c of someone’s slacking and another minute b/c of waiting times at boss encounters. In total 22 minutes time waste. I agree at all with the 4 times faster clearing speed: 7.5 minutes each run. This means 67.5 minutes in total - plus 22 minutes delays results in 89.5 minutes in total. Wow mighty 30s advantage left for the group, but only ~57 bounties to do compared with 75 solo. Thats would be ok for me. But to say, solists should get 4 times the reward would be too much.

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Get rid of Split Farming.

See this is where you lose me because you say flarbear is wrong but then say the EXACT same thing just in a different way.
Groups are faster and get more rewards and XP. There is an acceptable level of disparity but the current level is not it. However it has been this way for years and to think we may change it is most likely fantasy.
We are shouting into the void I feel.

500 paragon is quite a lot actually.

On average, if you can do 15 lvl higher GRifts, your gems will likely become 15 lvls higher (up to the cap of course). Doesn’t matter that yours were not.

No. Higher chances is higher chances. More drops. And more mats for crafting. Better gear on average. That is exactly how the game works. Plus, the potential for sharing gear in a group.

Nah, it would change which type of gear and builds would be used.

Complete nonsense.
Not how this works. Not how anything works.

Sure it is. We have leaderboards. It would be easy to see if solo players suddenly started clearing higher GRifts than groups.

IF you are inefficient in a group, yet somehow efficient when solo (which seems like a fairly unlikely scenario), then yeah, you might be more efficient solo. That is not a problem. Different player skill leads to different efficiency. Working as intended.
Again, you have to compare people at the same skill level. A skilled solo player vs. a skilled group. The group should be 10% ahead. Unskilled solo player vs. unskilled group. The group should be 10% ahead. But an unskilled group should of course not be 10% ahead of a skilled solo player.

Yeah, as it it should be. D3 is not exactly a skill-heavy game, but in the few cases where skill can make a difference, it is perfectly fine that it does.

But you wont be any less efficient if the group vs. solo imbalance is reduced.
So that cant be your real concern.

Surely it can get closer than 2000% power difference at least. Even Blizzard is not that bad at game balancing.

So a 1000 paragon difference. Yep, quite significant.

Solo cant pass that GRift cap either. Does not seem like a problem.
Though I dont think either should realistically reach the cap.

Sure, which is why you cant look at no. 1 clears (I looked at no. 100 in my example in a previous post). With better data, you would probably want to look at the average GRift clear of maybe the top 1%
Since for the no. 1 player, GRift RNG plays a significant role. And there is quite the difference between 1 player being at GRift 150 and 1000 players being at GRift 150.

It is the truth. Sad powercreep truth, but still the truth. That it might hurt your feelings that other players are now not much weaker than you, does not change that truth.

Not really. Nothing about non-season makes that impossible. Blizzad does not seem to care much about non-season anyway. Not sure anyone care much about non-season.

Yes, half a GRift lvl. THat would be the goal.
Sure, if we only manage to get down to 1-2 GRift level difference, I’d be reasonably happy too. Once again; Reduce the gap. Then we can always take a second round of reducing the gap if needed.

Nobody is forgetting about that. It is part of the 10% efficiency gap goal.

Yeah, that would be fair enough. Maybe 3x for solo, 2x for 2man, 1x for 3man and 4man.

Probably too late for that. But if bounties existed in D4, yeah, they should be designed so splitfarming was not possible.
In general, D4 should try to make sure groups cant just split up. Also in dungeons, with one person sprinting ahead, leaving the others behind. The game should punish people who try that.
If Diablo want to make sure people can have a good multiplayer experience, that would be a much better step than simply bribing people into group play.

Maybe this is a kind of misunderstanding. As flarbear mentioned: 4 times faster and 4 times the reward. This results in 16 times more bounty caches.

If you do 5 bounties solo, you will get 1 cache from Tyrael. If you do 5 bounties in a 4man group, Tyrael will return 4 caches in total but only one for each player.

Maybe yes, maybe not. The question at some point is, what comes next!? If we take a look at the changes in the past, we will see a lot of power creep. Groups already hit the maximum possible: GR150. Soloist did this, too. But with the help of some ridiculous season themes or at the very top of the ladder board.

But what if the future bringt even more power creep. The chance for that is really high. This means, groups “stuck” at GR150 but soloists might climb the GR-Ladder a little higher. Currently, I would like to say, each class might clear GR130 solo w/o the help of some kind of season buff. But in a few seasons this “limit” might become GR140. This would close the gap a little bit. But note, as I said before. It is not that much necessary to make solo play a little bit more efficient than playing in groups. Power creep wouldn’t ruin the game but maybe it ruins the community due to the “loss” of group play.

Theoretically yes. But the group doesn’t do what I want the whole time. The group will average at some point. At the current state of the game I can’t tell you, what the difference might be. Since groups don’t need 1% runs anymore, but soloist do, the gap might be greater or maybe not, b/c gems leveled in groups hit the cap.

To compare this with my experiences in S13, I would have to run GR127 1% runs solo. Well, thats not imposible. But I am not sure if it wouldn’t be slighty harder than doing GR108 1% in S13.

Ok, I see, we have to take a deeper look into this topic.

1.) Magic Find Bonus
I am not 100% sure how this works. But lets say it works like expected, resulting in more legendaries or “better” legendaries. These additional items you need to equip your toons for group play, even if you don’t stick at one class, most group player won’t do.

But there is another point, that relevates the bonus magic find. At GR90 or GR95 - I am not sure - you will reach the maximum amount of items that may drop from a Rift Guardian. This cap is the same for solo and group. No, you won’t find more ancient or primal items, b/c their chances ar not based on magic find factors, as far as I know.

2.) More mats for craftig.
Well, if you count bounties, you’re right. But over all I think it doesn’t really matter, b/c a solist is way more focussed on his class, than the average group play is allowed to do. Means, the group play - in average - has to spend more mats into crafting, b/c he has to equip more toons.

3.) Better gear on average.
Just no, b/c loot share doesn’t work really well. Yes, if you have a set group, than this might work, b/c the group focusses on specified roles. But this is by far not the average.

4.) Loot sharing.
Well, there is a potential like said before. But the reality shows a difference. If you run in a META-Group you will have four different classes. This reduced the chance of being able to share loot dramatically.

Ofc, I received a few very good items from others. But over all, the vast majority of my items I had to find by myself, even if my clan knew about my solo plans.

It seems you and some others are thinking that four deamon hunters in a group will result in 4 times more and better loot for every one. That’s just B$ … :smiley:

5.) More blood shards in group.
It should be more blood shards in group - and yes there are more blood shards in group. But this instantly getting lowered by the overhead a group is confronted with.
But lets see, what I got in my example seasons:
In my solo season there were 1.964 million blood shards. The three comparable seasons I avaeraged at 2.406 million blood shards. That’s 25% more than playing solo! Unfair!!!
Nope it isn’t. Because I wasn’t able to spend all the time the shards into my favorite class. This is some kind of default issue while playing in group. Hopefully I don’t have to explain this more detailed.

At the end, apart from bounties, there is no real (averaging) advantage regarding the gear while playing in groups.

Thats kind of balancing. If you lower the multiplier by an relative average, you only would move the GR-Limits, but you won’t touch the issues.

Well, if you only lower some of the multipliers that would affect the builds aka item choices, ofc. But in a system with (almost) infinite difficulty scaling you will ever find a META. This will everytime result in such issues we’re talking about.
And ofc, it would touch both, solo and group. Unlikely groups would have been hit hit harder than solo.

There is way more than just this single element of the system you have to care about. But well, it seem to be hard to realize that. There are dozens of factors affecting each other. If you alter one of them you will affect others, too.

What is the effort to be an unskills solist?
What is the effort to form an unskilled group?
What is the effort to be a skilled soloist?
What is the effort to form a skilled group?

Try to define this in plain numbers, than you might be able to start a first try naming some kind of benefcial number for group play. I you aren’t able to do this, there is no need to talk to each other any longer.

The solely possibility to get some conrete data is to analyse the whole thing over a long time. Did you do this? Nope? Maybe Blizzard did some research. I don’t know. :wink:

Ofc, I won’t. I don’t really care about how I “have to” play the game, either solo or in group. The most efficient would be my choice. But I know how important the community - the other players - are, to keep me in game. If those ppl would become unimportant I am quite sure I would quit the game, as many others would do, too.

Well, it wouldn’t be 1k paragon, b/c I wouldn’t be able to utilize the whole group bonus all the time. Remember in the mentioned left over of 87% - from theoretically 300% and more.

But lets stick at those 1000 paragons. Even this amount of paragon would affect the pushing process way less than GRift RNG actually does. In my opinion this issue is way more important than the difference between solo and group play.

Yes, if this issue get solved, the solo vs. group difference has to be lowered as well.

The feelings are about a gap. If the gap will be closed by a buff it will have the same effect as it would closed by a nerf.

They do b/c this is the normal mode of the game and they focussing their balancing on it: “GR130 solo @ Paragon 5000”. I am quite sure that this is nothing with a seasonal focus … :wink:

As i mentioned above. Just wait a few seasons, the gap will constantly be closed - step by step.

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Faster clear speeds (Grifts and bounties) = more drops, and more mats for crafting.

It might not help much with getting class items, unless you are running multiple of the same class obviously, but it can make it easier to get some of general items (amulets/rings especially).
I’m not against loot share, that is a fairly good group bonus to have. Yet another thing bringing groups ahead however.

Yes. Well, unfair is a weird word in the context. Just a difference which should not exist.

You are not comparing apples to apples here. You can play a single class in a group, just like you can solo. The meta classes might not be the ones you want to play, sure, but that is certainly also true solo.

Gear multipliers has nothing to do with groups and solo. It was in regard to you saying the current game was boring without paragon grind.

Yes. But it is all measured in GRift lvl and paragon. Sadly. It would be easy to see if solo suddenly was ahead of groups. And you can always look at other metrics as well, like how fast they get bounty mats etc.

The effort to make unskilled solo and groups would be around 0. Jump in and kill stuff.
Effort for groups is to make sure you have the correct builds needed for meta. Which takes a little effort, but lets be real, even for people with little knowledge about the game, they can find guides in a few minutes.

But no, as above, we do not need to put exact values on the grup overhead. We can just watch the end result in GRift lvl and paragon.
If you balance around those, then the group effort overhead is already factored in.

Spend like 30 seconds looking at the leaderboards and you will see what is obvious for everyone.
Blizzard can get much more exact data of course, and balance solo/groups based on it, to each that 10% difference (or whatever).

Seems like you do care how you have to play the game then.
Which is good.
And again, that would not change, since groups should be a little bit ahead of solo. at the same player skill lvl.

Nothing indicates that at all.
Sure, if they powercreep everything to GRift 150, it does, but that would be pretty sad on its own. Hence, the need for significant itemization nerfs in general. But different topic.

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One could imagine a timeliness bonus, but it wouldn’t be to quadruple the original reward. Also, the speed here is as experienced by the human players, not by the townfolk. A 4 man team can take their time and even ignore an Act’s bounties and then, at their leisure, complete that Act’s bounties well after they were posted on the map and they’d still get 4x the reward.

So, if it were just a %-age and not 4x the reward and if it were somehow actually based on time, then I could see it, but either or both of those conditions are at odds with that interpretation.

It would actually be an interesting addition to add timeliness bonuses for bounty runs, but you’d have to have them triggered by a player action so that the game could time the completion. Perhaps tag Tyrael to start and end for the bonus (which would have the added advantage of being able to run a new bounty set without having to restart the game).

For this system to replace the current bounty reward system, though, it would have to have rewards vs time triggers that would make a medium ability 4 player team easily earn a cache per player as they do now, but it would also open the door for a smaller team that works really well together to get bigger rewards through higher skill. How fast do split bounty groups typically exhaust all 25 bounties? That time divided by 5 plus a margin for random bounty times would become the 4x cache time limit per Act. Slower times might earn 3x or 2x bounties. Splitting a 3x bonus with 4 players is an exercise left to the reader. :wink:

For bounties I agree, but since you don’t have to grind bounties the whole season, this “advantage” is relative. The faster clear speed in GRifts doesn’t affect this statistic, b/c speeds were run at almost the same time, no matter if solo or group.

Well, rat runs are a bit faster than normal speeds, ofc. But which items I get for my Barb while playing zNec? In this case, the amount of items is effectively reduced to almost zero. If I focus on Necro I am fine, b/c I will get slightly more items overall and have the oportunity to share loot.

Yes, in a “perfect” group that works, IF someone finds such a high end items and doesn’t need it. But how often this will happen? I don’t know. But I know, that this isn’t a common thing. Only if there is a chance that something will happen doesn’t guarantee that this will happen to everyone.

I a affraid you’re reading only the parts you want to read, while ignoring everthing else. Yes, there are more blood shard while playing in groups. But there is also a significant higher need for items due to the fact of the existing of toons/builds you need to play in group. And the fact, that not every player who enjoys group play is “allowed” to play his favorite class. This lowers the advantage drastically, down to an disadvantage fo group players in this matter. Sounds strange for someone who’s only comparing numbers w/o any context, but thats the reality.

Since group play is affected by some META tendencies it isn’t possible for everyone to play his favorite class in group. running in groups w/o META base, will reduce the efficiency down to something you could easily do solo. In the current state of the game, where dh’s dominating the game, monks and barbs exists as supporters, crusaders are viable as boss killers and necros are still viable as rat or even as trash killer - try to equip a mage. Vyrtodo speeds? If you find ppl for that, ok. Anything else is just a waste of time or doesn’t benefit in any case from those unbelievable group bonuses.

Similar situation for crusaders/monks/necros not finding a group or beeing “forced” by the META to play another class. You’re right if you compare someone who is playing solo and able to fully focus on his favorit class with someone playing in groups and focussing on his favorite class. But this is by far not the reality.

Theoretically the favorite classes splits the community into 7 equal parts. So everyone should be able to play what he wants while beein in a group. But:

  • not every class is “listed” for every kind of META-Play
  • not everyone is able to play every possible role of his fav. class proper.

This leads to some compromises. Compromises at the cost of group advantages. At the end you’re fine, b/c you get more power due to higher paragon levels but losing a bit due to the lack of better gear. Well, gems are a bit better and maybe the gear isn’t that bad b/c of group bounties. Maybe this is enough to close the gap or even put the group player slightly over the solist. But at the end, as I showed before, it’s less than a GR level. In my opinion not worth to complain about - and far far anway from thos superlatives aka 300% more xp or 2000% more damage.

This doesn’t let they instantly convert into skilled players … :wink:
Especially for group play you need to know way more than just a build or the basics, the normal guids talking about (if you’re lucky).

Example: Support-Barb. How to handle the spear, when to stomp, etc. Which skills, items für which META, what are the differences, what you have to focus on …
I don’t know a single player who became a good support barb by just reading a guide …

Ocf, this is a possibility. But this would take a lot of time. And as I believe, with upcoming power creep the gap between solo and group will become smaller. Btw. this fits to your “Lessen Power”-Theory.

Well, if I take a look at the leader boards I don’t see, what would happen, if some of the group player would switch to SSF. Yes, less paragon, lower gems but what about the solo GR clears? I think, you won’t see a large difference.

Just wait for some power creep. If you’re able to run solo GR134 in less than 10 minutes straigth, solo will become at least even to group play. A little bit more and group play may become obsolete.
I am not sure where this “less than 10 minutes”-limit currently is. But maybe not that far away from the 134-Breakpoint as you believe.

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No, this is not a valid argument. We are also comparing with the best performing solo classes. You might not get to play what you want solo either, if you want to be at the top.

That is still true for solo as well if you want to maximize efficiency.

No you really haven’t shown that.

The power gap was the 10-15 Grift lvls you showed.

Class balance and meta problems is a separate problem from the solo/group issue. Sure, would the power balance chance if something was done about zDPS? Yeah. Doesn’t exactly seem like anything will be done about it in D3 though.

It moves you from completely unskilled non-meta player to something far above. Again, apples to apples.

We got a PTR. Shouldn’t take that long to get a decent idea tbh.

Not if groups run 5 minute 150s at the same time.

This! I quit every season after 2 or 3 weeks because I get demoralized.

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Yes and no. But soloist have more options, b/c the classes aren’t that different in their perfomances as groups are, with different setups. If you want to focus in a mage in the current game you will have some trouble by finding groups which will let you progress well. But if you play this class solo, you are able to run speeds @GR100+ as well as every other class and you can perform GR130+ for pushing. Group-wise ~GR120 would be viable with Vyrtodo’s but you wont find such a group nowadays. So group play is way more restrictive in this matter.

As I told before. It is a difference if you perform less efficient or not performing at all.

Because it isn’t necessary. Oo
I compared the solo GR-Levels reached playing solo only and buffed by playing in group to progress the account. There was in total less than 1 GR-Level difference.

It doesn’t really matter if groups are able to clear way higher GR’s. If it would be possible to clear the same GR-Levels solo or grouped, maybe within a similar time, then group play would become unnecessary and would die.

Thats a good point. What if zDPS would be nerfed so groups would only contain DD’s anymore? The group advantages were gone …

:man_facepalming:

Did you ever run GR150 constantly in 5 minutes?

By what? Because your paragon is far behind the paragon of the top players?
How intensive you’re playing in these 2-3 weeks?

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People who liked grouping would still play in groups.
But grouping should indeed continue to have the potential to be slightly more efficient, so it wouldn’t become an issue.

Yeah, at least some of the advantage would be gone, but that is not going to happen. And we are trying to find solutions here that do not nerf people. Although nerfing would be a good thing to do - but different topic.

People got below 5 minutes in S20. (S21 is irrelevant of course)

While they are certainly rare, since people flock around meta, I could at least find 1 wizard doing a GR 146 in 3man in S20. So yeah, still higher than their best solo clear. And quite a bit higher than GR 120.

Oh, and in a group you can also run speed 100+ GRifts no matter your class, so same as solo. Well, except for doing it better due to the imbalances.

Heh. Give players a few weeks on PTR, and Blizzard would have a good idea about the effect of a change. Just as with new sets etc. Not 100% accurate of course, but a perfectly fine start.