https ://maxroll.gg/d3/tierlists/solo-tierlist
‘Shades of the Nephalem allows Necromancers to add one Legendary Weapon Power into their build which means they’re significantly ahead every other build.’
But any class gets the ‘exclusive 4th Kanai’s Cube Slot’ - so why are Necros ‘significantly ahead every other build’?
Thanks.
Necros have huge universal bonuses which help most of their builds. Other classes don’t have similar benefit.
Well, other classes get extra power for sure, but Necromancers have the most abundant pieces. I think this is about Necromancers’ crowd control sensitive nature, high commit to positioning running the risk of spiraling out of control when they fail to gauge what they inflict upon the masses.
All the other classes have similar “gifts” for this Season; you have your Executioner, Grin Reaper, Convention of Elements, Flying Dragon, Odyssey’s End, but I think none of them are impactful as Shadowhook or Corroded Fang. To say the least, some of those Legendary powers require you to equip RoRG, or replace a skill in the build if it’s not the specifics; Necromancers have no such qualms about any of their builds.
in their skills?
or in the items which can be put into the cube?
My necro is lvl 70, the highest level i have with another class is 2 or 3.
Trag’Oul’s Corroded Fang Keep Necromancer Core class item
says maxroll.
Oh boy, I would never have entertained the idea of going mêlée with a Necro.
Still loads to learn … 
Obviously this one. For example Death Nova builds normally have Funerary Pick and Iron Rose equipped and Bloodtide Blade in the weapon slot of the cube. In the 4th slot they can now put Scythe of the Cycle, a flat 5x multiplier to secondary skills.
Or other builds they can use Trag’Oul’s Corroded Fang, a flat 3x multiplier against cursed enemies that applies to all skills.
Other classes don’t have similar huge widely applicable buffs. They may have some large ones but they generally are very skill specific.
Yep, almost all builds from other classed already use all of the items with big multipliers.
While necro has a lot of weapons with huge damage multiplier, both specific to skills, and general, so that with a normal 3-slot cube, you have to leave out some big weapon multipliers because there isn’t space for it. With the extra slot, you can bring another big weapon multiplier.
Cycle of the scythe gives 400% dmg to secondary skills. That’s a massive buff that no other character class gets as far as I know.
You can play Trag’Ouls DN - it’s effectively a melee build.
Correct.
A couple wizard builds can work deathwish (+325% damage while channeling) into their builds (not tal rasha though), and most will have to make sacrifices to fit it in. Except (LoD and I think DMO) twister builds that already channel anyway, so they can play exactly same build but with a free x4.25 damage. So that’s very much on the level of necros, but twister builds are behind death nova to start with so not really impacting meta…
i think they dont care, if game concernig all chars is balanced.
It was a huge mistake to nerf talrasha setup, and I can still see Barb monk and WD abandoned, DH still can do “nice” some how.
the most hilarious thing i ever read here, is blizzard’s note when they nerf talrasha set, claiming as an excuse “restoring the balance”. In the last 3 seasons I played more with Necro and Cruzeder. I wanted to play with others and have the same progress.
The fail they made when balancing was they did it with the nerfed Altar and Shards seasonal theme. The Altar and seasonal themes affect each build and class differently.
Their “balancing” patch completely failed non-season, as they do not have Themes and they do not have the nerfed Altar. Looking at the LBs, the meta for each class is kinda close, but the non-meta builds are all over the place.
When looking at seasons, the Shard/nerfed Altar season was pretty close with all builds. This makes sense since that is what they balanced around. Once they changed the Theme, the balance of the game changed and they have no correction for it. This is why Wiz was dominate for Ethereals last season, but Necro is dominate for free cube/4th cube slot seasons.
As a DH/WD main, I know going forward the class I like to play is going to be farther down the list. All this means is, I will just play the game less than I would if the classes I like to play were competitive. I don’t want to play a class I don’t like for 500 hours, so I can push a class I do like for 5 hours.
I assure you, if you explore your options instead of sticking to guides, that won’t happen. At least you won’t get bored. Guides you may read out there, are written for minimizing the loot hunt and tossing you into action as soon as possible. As a result, the guides you can read out there widely ignores some aspects of gameplay, such as comfort of player but has an appeal for convenience.
This may sound puzzling, but I kept this game fresh and enjoyable for myself by exploring my options every time and questioning which item would synergize with one another. You may even think I’m somewhat naive but it is not impossible to find a more efficient way to play a build than the guides you have read.
This season I put together an A6I2 Bombardment build that is competitive with Condemn. I was about 1800 paragon and I cleared GR144. I didn’t even finish the Altar. With 1000 extra paragon (30k str), GR150 is quite easy because I can sustain the I2 thorns bonus indefinitely, which I cannot right now. Once you get the gear, it is a fun experience.
As far as Maxroll is concerned, A6I2 Bombardment is dead, there is not even a build guide for it, yet it still works on Non-Season and is capable of GR140+ at 5k paragon.
It is clear why this is the case, D3 is an older game with too few resources aimed at it — including Maxroll.
As far as the ‘final balance’, a few sets just aren’t meeting the mark and revisions are needed to not only improve non-season balance, but how certain season themes impact specific classes, I feel many themes are overly generous for classes like Necro and Wizard, and group compositions suffer as a result.
It’d be nice to see an annual update, where itemization gets another pass, perhaps they incorporate Necro’s very high weapon damage bonuses into set bonuses.
Otherwise, consider all classes having certain builds that can fit a legendary w/ 200-400% damage bonus, where it cannot be squeezed in on non-season builds.
Ie. Jace’s Hammer grants 300% damage to blessed hammer. (Mainly beneficial to 4th cube and mixed cube seasons)
Ie. DH Quiver, 6 affix item, one rolls Secondary Skills gain 250-300% damage.
etc.
GRATS !!! . i will try bobardemnt …
I love finding off-meta builds for off-meta classes and off-meta sets, and the maxroll guide isn’t always what ends up on top of the leaderboards at the end of the season. But in 99% of the cases, the off-meta sets just don’t have the capability of competing with the strongest sets. It’s not only that the other builds are underplayed or under-explored, it’s simply not possible. It’s like telling someone with a rusty tricycle to just get creative when competing with a race bike. “Explore your options” indeed sounds a bit naive when there aren’t any good options.
You’ve never really pushed any build right? I remember you saying that you’ve never done more than GR130 or so. And that’s fine, you can enjoy the game how you want, just like everyone else. I’m just not sure you fully understand the situation here, the frustration of putting in lots of time and effort to find the perfect flavour for your set and achieve a technically very clean and optimised clear, only to not even get top 1000 on the leaderboard, and still not be welcome in group play. And then have someone come and tell you to explore your options, as if it’s your fault.
WD in particular has had it rough for many years, idk what blizzard was thinking. DH too is far from the top in solo pushing or group dps atm, getting close to nothing from the current theme. You’re always welcome in groups on zdh, and has one of the smoothest speed farmers in GoD, but what are you farming for if there are no competitive pushing builds?
To be exact GR134 back at S28, but that’s kind of on me for not finding out a different spec that could deal more damage before season ended, which I later did.
Most of the people, not all of them mind you, complain about not having the perfect gear as shown on the guides and how their Set sucks compared to this and that.
People are unaware of valid substitute items they can equip which performs really close. Even though those items would not bump damage as high, they’re usually very sustainable for a longer duration in combat and at the cost of more effort, you can get a similar result at low Paragon levels.
An example on top of my mind would be Ess of Johan to replace Squirt’s Necklace. When the pull effect occurs, all you need to do is putting a debuff at the crowd, such as Marked for Death, Piranhas or Decrepify. The Area Damage you can dish out against often tightly packed enemies could be somewhat comparable to double damage that faint at the slightest breeze, but more sustainable at the long run.
Also I’m a firm believer that game is currently balanced on effort and power. The reason other Sets are “competitive” or “doing better than yours” is usually because, they are designed that way. But, in case your build finds itself tapping buttons madly or getting very long wind ups but never achieving similar results; it is time to compare and question the build you have followed.
I always follow guides I have read online but I treat them as a blueprint of sorts instead of some manifesto that I should follow at every step to be competitive. Sometimes I end up getting lucky, and find a build that deal around 30-50% more damage than the online guides. They’re easy to compare in a simulator and gauge them in-game by doing test runs in Greater Rifts. Why yes, they’re sturdy enough as well, I am not talking about neglecting aspects of characters.
I am completely aware this edge of damage output is only 2-3 Greater Rift tier margin; but as build changes so the input density you need to put yourself through would lessen. Then what’s the deal? I find that whenever I change a build, risk factor that I need to suffer in-game or situations to be aware of, increases. More I change the build to perform somewhat better, more monsters and obstacles get in my way.
I don’t want my words (more like a wall of text at this point…) to be interpreted badly; I think guides out there did a fantastic job at mitigating the risk factors for players, but this is not all there is to it for this game. This is why you are able to see different builds climbing on top of the leader boards. Don’t limit yourself with the guides and you may be surprised, but no, a meta build doing well is out of your control.
Truth.
I think I have just checked EU Leader Boards in Solo Self-found, a few hours ago and I remember a Witch Doctor at the top cleared GR150, haven’t checked the Paragon level. Second place belonged to a GR140 clear, which raises some eye brows but this is Solo mode for you; the interest will be low and people will show more interest to the Flavor of the Season builds.
I know that solo tier list in Maxroll is in the context of 5k paragon levels, and scale them that way but I don’t think they’re particularly in a bad spot. I may need to check that SSF Leader Boards again.
So many words, saying so little. I don’t think you understand what I said, or the situation alex is in.
I don’t go by guides.
Look at the top of the LBs. Some builds have dozens or hundreds of 150 clears with 2000 paragon or less, some builds only have a couple of 150 clears requiring 5000+ paragon. Some builds still do not have a 150 clear a month and a half in.
Last season, I pushed all LB builds except Necro. I got my GoD and Marauders to low-mid 140s while fishing about 50-60 keys to get a pretty solid GR. Switched to cold Meteor, which was like the 3rd or 4th best Wiz option and ran a 148 which took 3-4 keys to get a decent GR, not even close to the DH GRs.
This season, running my UE and Marauder, it feels like I am running underwater at 120 while Necros with my 1200 paragon are squeaking 150s. Like I said, unless it is the shards season again, the balance is going to be off. Every theme is going to affect builds differently, requiring a separate balance pass.
As far as my playtime, I like to play solo and in group. My solo time will probably be about the same. My group time will be far less as it requires me to play a class and a build I do not enjoy, zbarb. No one is going to invite you to anything fun with a DH unless you are running a zdh, which I do not like to play either, and you are sure as hell not getting invited to anything of consequence playing a WD. This means my group playtime will be pretty much zero this season.
Right. By season’s end, most if not all LB builds will have a GR150 clear. The difference is, a few of the builds will have dozens or hundreds of clears with 2k or less paragon and a lot of clears sub 6-7 minutes, while there are going to be a lot of builds that require 5k+ paragon with a handful of clears 10 min or longer. This alone is a HUGE power difference.
The other thing to remember is, we don’t what GR these clears are getting, and how many keys they need to fish to get the clear they got. As I said, I pushed 36 different builds last season. Some clear GR XXX face roll easy, some builds require a lot of fishing to squeak that same GR XXX build in 14-15 minutes.
I know you like to have a rosy opinion of the game’s design, but until you have pushed several builds to their limits (same paragon, similar gear strength), it is real difficult to comment on the balance between all these builds.
Right… I’ll try to go back to topic and be direct. There’s nothing you can do about some builds topping the leader boards, that shouldn’t be a reason where you stop enjoying your once favorite classes.
I believe they’re subject to bad randomization as much as you. They have their own issues while pushing but they tend to avoid it by traits of their build or planning ahead. I don’t play Necromancer either, so I rather not draw judgment.
If all these Season themes that favor Necromancers appearing back to back, were a sign that they’re still following some metrics, I can only hope a balance tweak patch or a Season where diverse builds become viable, follow afterwards.
Back at S27 we had zWD became part of the “meta” for once but it was a flavor of the month that lasted very short.
Most effective strategies always thrive for efficiency. I don’t know if you’d agree with me here but when developers try to induce build diversity, things may turn upside down.
If they try to induce build diversity, there are two outcomes of such thing; either current meta will have their roles replaced with newly buffed classes in the patch, or nothing changes. Players will always go for the most efficient or path with least resistance. I hope for a balance patch to D3 too, else a remake down the road but I don’t expect it any time soon when they are still busy with Diablo 4.
I sure am. I was heavily criticizing this game back a few years, but more I delve into it, I see how coherent it is on its own now. I never was a competitive player, so depth of the mechanics actually intrigues me.
Thanks for cutting it down! 
Unfortunately it does make you enjoy your favourite class less, if you’re a DH/WD main that enjoy pushing leaderboards. That’s probably not you (which is fine, good for you), but I find myself mostly the same, more motivated to play when the wizard is strong.
I agree that we can’t do anything, so imo sympathy is the way to go here, not advice. Which is why I reacted to your first post.
It may make “some” enjoy their class less, but not everyone. I play Monk and WD as my mains. Even when my favorite builds were not even top tier, I still had fun playing them.
A lot of people (especially now) don’t even look at leaderboards anymore. It’s mostly fruitless trying to compete against bots. That or if the build you have the most fun with isn’t grossly OP, it won’t reflect on a set of flawed metrics.