Reorganizing Paragon Attributes into other Categories?!

PTR Feedback
1

Not sure how fast this could be done, so it may be a something that can be done is a later patch, but with the upcoming adjustments to the Paragon System which limits Paragon Points, making their allocation more meaningful, …

… it may also be a good time to eventually “re-order” / “reorganize” some of the Attributes into different Categories (e.g. Area Damage into Offense).

If not now, maybe in the next patch.

This here is some suggestions to illustrate:

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CORE

  • Mainstat (maybe a % increase instead of flat bonus?)
  • Vitality (maybe a % increase instead of flat bonus?)
  • Resource Cost Reduction
  • Cooldown Reduction (combine CDR and RCR and half their effect ?)

OFFENSE

  • Attack Speed
  • Area Damage (moved from Utility to here - is obviously Offense)
  • Critical Hit Chance
  • Critical Hit Damage

DEFENSE

  • %Life (maybe include some Life Regen ?)
  • %Armor
  • All Res
  • +#% Dodge Chance per Point (NEW)

UTILITY

  • Maximum Resource (moved from Core to here)
  • Movement Speed (moved from Core to here)
  • Life per Hit
  • Life Regeneration (moved from Defense to here - maybe turn it into a Percentage Life regenerated per Second ?)

BONUS IDEA 1: Your Pickup Radius AUTOMATICALLY increases by +# Yards per PARAGON LEVEL, up to a maximum of +## Yards (at Paragon 800?).

BONUS IDEA 2: as @Stedia suggested in this thread, you could get +# Main Stat and +# Vitality AUTOMATICALLY for each Paragon Level without a Cap.

BONUS IDEA 3: as @dmkt, @ThanatosVI and @Stedia suggested in this thread, the Main Stat and Vitality Bonuses in the Paragon System could be replaced with ‘% increased Damage’ (multiplicative multiplier) and ‘% reduced Damage Taken’.

BONUS IDEA 3: just an idea: combine several Bonuses into one Affix, e.g. Max Resource, Resource Regeneration Resource Cost Reduction and Cooldown Reduction.

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Maybe not perfect, but it illustrates the concept.

Maybe even some different Affixes can be included, like Energy Shield (similar to Galvanizing Ward), or CDR and RCR can be combined and halved, and then something else can take the free space… or Mainstat and Vit can give both a % and a Flat Bonus…

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Any other ideas / suggestions for a potential reorganization of Paragon Attributes? Plz share blow!

10 Likes
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I’d like this to be converted into % Damage (DIBS), they ought to remove the defensive component of this,

Essentially the same thing as % Life, but okay, can also move % Life here and put % Crowd Control Immunity in the Defense category.

In my opinion, this one should be removed entirely. No more asking another player to remove area damage. Let the AD cap be 134% from gear alone.

I agree, this is never appreciated, it needs a reboot with higher values.

3 Likes
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Yeah, that is even better. Good thought!

Since Mainstat itself has both a defensive and an offensive component, it basically is superior to VIT, so removing the defensive component makes the choice more distinct.

But isn’t DIBS additive with other sources of DIBS, including from Passive Skills?
Alternatively it can be a Multiplicative Multiplier instead of an Additive Multiplier, so it would be perfect.

or even better while we are at it, it can be turned into % DR.

The Patch Note say that Area Damage is now performing better, however they didn’t go into specifics of what they changed about its mechanics or code.

imo one way could be to cap one proc of AD at e.g. 5 enemies max, but who knows what exactly they changed about it.

It could be combined with %Life into one Attribute in the DEFENSIVE Category.

Imagine if you the choice between

  • % Life and % Life Regen
  • % increased Armor and All Resistances
  • % of Max Life as Energy Shield
  • % Dodge Chance

… you suddenly have some very interesting choices to make.

2 Likes
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We need something like that.
Mainstat should be just a damage multiplier.
Vitality should be damage reduction (we have %life in the def tree already)

The items in each category should be rescaled to have the same opportunity costs.
i.e. Area Damage is worth 8 max item rolls. CDR 6, Crit Chance 3 … this should be balanced to be rather equal and you chose the one your build needs most not the one which is clearly superior to the others.

I love the “passive pickup radius” depending on Paragon idea.

2 Likes
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First of all good idea and feedback!

I would like to give some ideas, mainstat and vitality should be replaced with damage increase (covered by dmkt) instead of mainstat and damage reduction instead of vitality.

Mainstat and vitality should be raised by the increase in paragon just like your suggestion for pick up radius.

Cheers

1 Like
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Also I wonder if it would be overkill if it was changed to regeneration in order to affect both life and resource.

1 Like
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Why even have categories at this point? Why 4 pages capped at 200 each? It should just be 1 page and you have 800 or whatever points and you should be able to allocate them as you want.

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Excellent thoughts all around. Just adding a cap at 800 is a bit silly. Paragon points should be harder and more exciting to earn. A full rework makes sense, though it would not be compatible with non-season unless they pushed it to both.

2 Likes
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Yeah, that is a good idea. I will add it as a bonus to the original post!

And the Damage Multiplier needs to be a Multiplicative Multiplier, not an Additive Multiplier, because as a Multiplicative Multiplier it has a higher value / usefulness than an Additive Multiplier.

hmm, I definitely can add this to the Bonus Suggestion List.
Thanks!

In general it is “better” to have distinct roles for Attributes.
Like for CORE, these Roles would be

  • Offensive
  • Defensive
  • Mobility
  • Resource (+maybe CDR)

Theoretically the resource Attribute could be a combination of

  • Increased Max Resource
  • Resource Regeneration
  • Cooldown Reduction (???)

… which still keeps it interesting due to the CDR.

% Life Regeneration is more of a Defensive Affix, so Combing it with another (maybe underused) Defensive Affix might make them together more appealing while still fitting into a clear role.

I can imagine that in one of the later patches, it will also come to non-Season in one way or another.

Imagine if it would be as @Stedia suggested where you automatically gain +# Mainstat and +# Vitality for each Paragon Level, but without a cap. That way you still gain a bonus for each Paragon Level after you reached the “Paragon Point Cap”.

1 Like
10

Bumping this for creative ideas listed regarding possible paragon rework.

1 Like
11

I see what you mean and you have a point.

Only difference is that I had in mind the cap :wink: nothing more. But there could be a solution that caters your idea. Namely a percentile increase to base mainstat per paragonlevel. It has to be a low number though.

Ex. 3% @ P20000, so @P5000 that would be 0,75% sorry for using the European style of decimals.

Too much power will just have to be avoided in my opinion.

Sorry @Clueso for replying so late. This week has been pure hell at work, utterly exhausted.

Edit. The percentile increase was already suggested by you in the op. I just realized that now tbh.

A combination like that might work but we are putting a heavy burden on the devs to balance things out.

:slight_smile:

Edit2:

To be honest I am a bit split about the last suggestion, it kind of goes against the cap.

1 Like
12

You mean an automatic % increase to Mainstat and VIT per Paragon Level without a cap?

Or a % increase to Mainstat and VIT in the CORE section of the Paragon System with the cap of 200 Points?

I personally like caps, like Character Level 100, but for the game that D3 is and that the devs want it to be, a total Cap at progression on Paragon 800 does not feel too good, hence an automatic minor increase per Paragon Level, without a cap is fine imo…

… whether that is e.g. +1 Mainstat and +1 VIT per Paragon Level without a cap or a 0.#% increase in Manstat and VIT per Paragon Level without a cap.

The main difference is that in order to take more advantage to the VIT Bonus, you need to have more +### VIT as an Affix on your gear, b/c the % increase is based on that, while the Flat +1 Vit per Paragon Level is also beneficial to chars that do not have too much +### VIT on their gear.

I personally think that +# VIT and +# Mainstat automatically without a cap per Paragon Level is more interesting because in the long run that would almost “free up” these affixes and make place for new ones, like 10% reduced Damage Taken from Elites on Chest Armor.

With a % increase, you still would need these to a larger degree in the long run.

But some people may disagree with that, but that is fine.

However, I still that that for the kind of game that D3 is, there should be some amount of reward for making a Paragon Levelup, whether that is a flat amount or a %-increase (as long as it is a minor amount).

13

My original thought was a pure increase to both main stat and vit per level 1-800. Now if it is one or two (five would be overkill imho) to each that depends on how much of a boost it is.

I agree that was the beauty of the paragon system, unfortunately that also creates a reason for some to bot.

That is were the percentage increase could be a nice addition, if it could be made so that the major part were reached at 1600ish then it could become interesting.

Ex I used the 3% increase as an example earlier. So I will continue with that.

Let’s say that you reach 2% @ 1000
2,5% @1600, and max out @20000 paragon reaching 3%.

The increase after 1600 would be so ridiculously small that it wouldn’t be noticable.

So a kind of formula that flattens out the higher paragon you reach.

Precisely. The reason I low ball the numbers is that it will create the need to plan what stats to go for.

We all have to keep in mind that the altar will be part of the game.

Edit 1:

I forgot to mention that one solution would be to make the cap selection optional.

That would mean that these numbers could change so that the capped characters get fixed increases up to 800 paragon period.

1 Like
14

I also could have quoted more parts of your posts, because what I say here also applies to that:

I think a lot of issues with the current Paragon System do not come from the Paragon System itself but from the power of sets and legendaries.

If the power of sets and legendaries would be significantly decreased (because their power is already absurdly and unnecessarily high), then it would slow down the rate at which you gain Paragon Points.

That is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if that gets combined with other Systems (like the Altar) that provide additional Progression.

Regardless of if they choose to do automatic Bonus Points to VIT and Mainstat as a % increase or a flat Bonus, decreasing the rate at which you get them + it only being a relatively minor increase will not over-emphasize the power of Paragon, which will also reduce the effectiveness of botting and other issues.

1 Like