People at the moment are soloing 150 because of their paragon levels being ridiculously high. You can get everything to 50 at paragon level 800. That should be its cap. So paragon offers a boost to your normal stats, but its not an insane boost. The best way to climb GRs will just be made by upgrading and augmenting your gear little by little as you slowly push higher and higher. Not because you have a stupid high paragon level of 10k plus.
6 Likes
I would like to see a cap of 1000 (in seasons only), where a point still rotates through each of the four trees (Core, Offense, Defense, Utility), but you can put those points anywhere without a 50 point cap…
For example, 250 points of cool down reduction if you desire…To give you 50% cool down reduction.
And change gold to “gold and magic find” to make it appealing and drop the +magic find rate currently in the game, so less legendary items drop.
Edit: another change - allowing us to upgrade the “quality” of items up to where they have the maximal possible rolled stats and 20 possible quality points. Each point of quality would come from sacrificing 20 forgotten souls at either the blacksmith or Kanai’s Cube to forge a new item that upgrades quality (1000 for 20 levels of quality), and at 20 points would turn an ancient item into a primal item…
To understand this, say your ancient legendary helm rolled 865 Strength out of a possible 1000
= (1000-865) / 20 = 135 / 20 = 6.75 points of strength per level of quality towards maximum stats and converting the item into a “primal ancient” item.
Also, salvaging a primal item would provide a unique +1 quality item that would ignore the exponential requirement of legendary crafting materials
This is one of many changes I think would make the game more competitive and fun.
5 Likes
While this isn’t a bad idea, MF in D3 (as a stat) is pointless, and has been nerfed to only give 10% of its value as benefit to level 70 characters.
We get rediculous amounts of it via the difficulty levels evidenced by the rain of legendaries we see once we hit the higher Torments.
I would suggest changing it to Gold Find and/or Pick Up Radius. (Not my idea, just parroting it because I liked it.)
This way, it adds a tiny bit of value for GR’s too.
1 Like
The reason why I would like to see it back, is purely because of what I’ve talked about post that comment, with dropping the legendary drop rate to accommodate what I suggest.
Not going to argue that, I prefer more control over my game as well.
With GR’s, I suppose the act of quickly switching to MF gear as you’re about to kill an elite/boss is impossible, which iirc, was one of the reasons they killed it in the first place.
It didn’t allign with their “philosophy” but… we have different devs working on the game now, so who knows. 
I have to know, why in your point of view see this as an issue? Isin’t that how games work? Where the more time you spend playing the game the more stonger you get? Why cap it? Are you jealous that there are other players capable of this? Like why is this a bad thing? Even if you did cap it and made augmenting more upgradeable, there’s going to be some players out there, no-life-ing D3 and eventually doing solo GR150 again.
4 Likes
There are two kinds of players who call for a cap on Paragon points; players who are unwilling or unable to invest the effort necessary to reach the Paragon levels that they complain about, and players who are insecure, envious, and suffer in general from an inferiority complex.
Each of these types of players believe that the only way they can reach the lofty heights of the players that vex them unreasonably from above is to hamstring and handicap those players, to prevent them from reaching those heights in the first place, so that the complainer has a chance to “catch up,” or “compete,” with these other players. Usually, on profile inspection, we find that the complainer is a player such that they would never be able to reach those heights anyway, Paragon hamstring or not.
That’s not to say that there isn’t anything wrong with the Paragon system, two things actually, forced allocation rotation and point allocation caps, and following a description of these problems, I offer solutions, so read on.
Forced Allocation Rotation
The point allocation is a forced balance rotation system, where there may be very limited character differentiation early on, because there is no other way to do it. If the player chooses to allocate the point, the player must assign a Paragon point to one of the four properties on the next tab in order, despite what they might want to do with that point otherwise.
This may result in a situation where there are minor variations between the power and capabilities of characters at level 430, for example. This also may result in a situation where a player is forced to put a point, sometimes a hard-earned point, into a property that he doesn’t want at all, for example, Gold Find after P600. How many players would choose to put that point into one of the other three properties on that tab if they were able?
This leads us to the next problem with Paragon.
Point Allocation Caps
The properties themselves have a point cap, so that at P800, every player is going to have the nearly the exact same point allocation and statistical power gain, with minor variations on the Core tab, where the player may or may not choose to add points to maximum primary resource, movement speed, vitality, or main stat. The player will have 200 points to allocate, and they may choose to max movement speed and resource at 50 points each, and then allocate the remaining 100 points to either main stat or vitality, or any mixture of two. The player may also choose to place all 200 points into main stat or vitality, or any mixture of the two. Notwithstanding this limited freedom, at P800 there is very little differentiation between characters, sans accoutrements, based on player choice.
This forced allocation rotation could be taken one step further, and simply be done fully automatically, where each point is placed into the next property on the next tab at each rotation, and player choice could be removed entirely. Functionally, this makes absolutely no difference to how any character is played in the game, since the Paragon points make little difference before 200, and after 600. Between these limits, the effect is negligible at best.
The solution. And please note that this solution does not include placing a limit on cumulative Paragon levels.
Remove Forced Allocation Rotation and Point Allocation Caps
How much better would it be if none of these properties had a cap at all, and there was no forced rotation whatsoever?
We should dismiss for a moment the argument that every single player would put every single point into IAS, CHC, and CHD. Naturally, these properties themselves would have to have some type of limit, even though the player would be able to assign additional points to them with no effect. For example, I have a character with 2.08 APS. It has 31% IAS. Given this, let’s say that the hard cap for IAS would be 50%, CHC would be 75% (the current actual hard cap I think), and CHD would be 750%. These numbers are arbitrary, but to continue to function without breaking the game, there would have to be some type of limit on these three properties, and perhaps Movement Speed as well. There would probably also have to be some type of mechanical limit to CDR and RCR. I don’t see any problem with Area Damage, which could be 500%, unless there is some mechanical limitation to the game engine. These mechanical limits would be the only consideration for imposing an upper limit on any property.
Beyond these three (or four), players would be free to place every point into any tab, into any property they wanted, thus creating a character with pronounced strengths and weaknesses. For example, if I put every single point I had into Movement Speed, IAS, CHC, and CHD, at the sacrifice of defensive and regeneration properties, I would essentially have the fastest, most fragile character in the game. Such a character might be useful for hit-and-run attacks. On the other hand, a Barbarian or Crusader might want to lean toward hard-hitting invulnerability.
The point is (no pun intended) that since the system exists, it should provide more than an illusion of player choice, but provide actual player choice that makes a meaningful gameplay difference.
3 Likes
Considering most of the stupidly high paragon players (in season and non-season) are botters, is it not in fact them with the inferiority complex and high amounts of insecurity?
Also, the others absolute need or requirement to be on the leader boards because of their insecurity, or anxiety, or envy at people who have successful lives so they spend 20+ hours a day grinding out greater rifts in a video game?
I don’t think you’ve thought this out very much at all, and your solution showed that you didn’t even read the posts before hand.
6 Likes
That’s an interesting assertion, but I believe that the botting community isn’t really about excelling at this game, I think it’s excelling at botting. Who can write the most effective and efficient scripts. A side effect is accumulating stupidly powerful gear and paragon levels, and placing on the high side of the leader board. Certainly there may be some, these insecure people, who believe that botting is the only way to place on the leaderboard. But I think it’s mostly the DGAF players who flout the rules and run the bot just to see how much they can get away with.
I’m not sure if that’s a question, statement, or revelation, and I’m not really sure how to decipher what you’re trying to say/ask, so I don’t know how to respond.
No, I didn’t read the posts beforehand, because when it comes to this topic the responses are usually made by people who haven’t thought about the mechanism at all, and are usually offering knee-jerk suggestions that make no sense whatsoever. I, on the other hand, have the only sensible solution to the Paragon problem that’s ever been suggested, I wrote it five years ago, and I just copy and paste it occasionally whenever the weak and envious start calling for Paragon caps.
Following your prompting, I did go back and read some of the replies, and this guy Tigerius immediately tried to derail the thread by talking about Magic Find, different grades of Primal items that have different attributes, and offered some of the most ridiculous suggestions about the Paragon system I’ve ever read.
Granted, players have talked about replacing Gold Find, which may be useless after P600 and certainly after P800, but not with the equally useless and all but deprecated Magic Find, but with Pickup Radius, which would be useful to all characters and classes.
So yeah, go back up two paragraphs here and read that one again. Because now it seriously applies.
1 Like
Players that play more should be rewarded, and the point of having a paragon cap isn’t their limitation, but changing focus from one source of power to some others.
Just the mentality of
“I can’t do this content, some of my gear pieces are lacking in power compared to others, so I have to see what those pieces are and try to replace them” is much better and healthier then the mentality of
“I can’t do this content, I just don’t have enough paragon levels, I should just play more and grind until I can do it”.
I especially agree with turning ancient items into primals. And I’m not saying that it should be an easy thing to do, it absolutely should not, but it’s a way of gaining power that’s not just level grinding. Combining that with a paragon level cap could be pretty interesting. Because the higher level players are going to have every single piece of their gear primal, and others will have a way of targeting their weakest piece of gear and upgrading it. The gap between a very high level player and a casual player would still be visible (and that is an important thing), but gearing would be much more fun for both of those players.
3 Likes
?
Since there’s a GR150 cap the augments are capped at 150 too. So how does a player get stronger after they get every gear pimal and capped their paragon level and augments? When a player reach this situation they have no incentive, its a dead end. This is pretty much getting rid of the unlimited point system (paragon system).
And i mentioned on an earlier post that even if we move the point system to augments or anywhere else, sadly this:
will keep happening. Players that play more gets more rewarded = a RPG game.
1 Like
It puts the top people on a relatively even playing field for the top grifts / time for ladders, especially if it’s seasonal (I would propose not limiting it in non season). Not to mention, there’s even less incentive without an end point, and the game would be easier to balance in terms of scaling.
You don’t need to keep getting stronger, their can be a limit, especially with seasonal play and to discourage botters.
Remember their point the goal is at 140-143 for grift clears, so above that would be exceptional.
And it will be separated by ability, or strategy rather than purely grinded paragons. You would still have to play a lot, just not 20 hours a day account share, or using a bot program…
1 Like
Paragon 800 cap is too low. It is extremely reachable.
Except for 800 cap, do you have another number for the cap? Something that is not easy to reach but at the same time, it is reasonable enough to reach.
Should’ve stayed at 800 cap…
Wow, so you’ve had the only workable solution for five whole years and Blizzard haven’t implemented it? Possible scenarios…
- Your suggestion is the best idea in the history of ideas, like ever, but Blizzard refuse to implement or even acknowledge it just so you can keep posting now and again.
- Your suggestion sucks because you’re suggesting having no allocation caps but then go on to explain why some of them would have allocation caps. Out of the 12 things in the non-Core tab that you don’t want a cap on, you’ve suggested capping 5 of them, i.e. AS, CHC, CHD, CDR, RCR.
I know you’re not a fan of statistics, but I’m willing to bet that the ratio of likeliness of option one to option two is at least 1:8.
Hey, just for giggles, did you consider Support Monks? Their Mantra of Healing ability is increased by 7% of their Life Per Hit value. So, if they could put 1000 paragon into Life On Hit, think how big their heals / shields would be.
You’ve just killed Greed in the Vault? Swap into your Gold Find gear and re-allocate all of your paragon points into +GF then open the chest (which is affected by GF) to get huge amounts more gold. (I’ve had over half a billion gold from her chest in an ancient vault with around 63K GF, think how much you’d get if you had 100K GF).
2 Likes
Unlimited Paragon-System is perfectly fine for me. Keeps us NS Players stick to the game what else should we farm? We always want to get stronger and stronger but if gear is perfect (which is the case) atleast we have the para grind to infinty.
2 Likes
Why does my idea suck because I explain why some of the properties would have to have not allocation caps, but limits? And why do you believe that my explanation of the need for mechanical limits equates to me suggesting caps?
What I said is that there may be mechanical upper limits to some of these properties because of the capabilities of the game engine or basic common sense. Let’s take them one at a time so even you can understand:
Increased Attack Speed: There may be some upper limit to the number of attacks per second and their resultant calculations that can be handled by the game engine. A hard cap would have to be set.
Critical Hit Chance: Naturally, the game developers may choose to allow an increase right up to 100% Critical Hit Chance, where every attack would be a critical; however, this may detract from the benefit of some other skills and items in the game, so I imagine there would be a hard cap somewhere below 100%. Naturally, you can’t have 110% Critical Hit Chance.
Critical Hit Damage: Critical Hit Damage could theoretically be anything. But there may be an upper limit to what the game can calculate, or to what the developers feel might be a workable vicinity within which to operate. Therefore, there would probably be an upper limit, but I would like to see at minimum 1000%.
Cooldown Reduction: Naturally, you can’t have 126% Cooldown Reduction, nor would 99.997% be functionally different from 100%, if you want the game to work properly. Therefore, I imagine that there would have to be some upper limit to CDR set by the designers of the game to keep the mechanisms functioning properly.
Resource Cost Reduction: Naturally, you can’t have 126% Resource Cost Reduction, nor would 99.997% be functionally different from 100%, if you want the game to work properly. Therefore, to prevent characters running around without the need for resources or resource management at all, I imagine that there would have to be some upper limit to RCR set by the designers of the game to keep the mechanisms functioning properly.
So I’m not suggesting “capping” anything. What I’m saying is that in my system, like it or not, there would probably have to be upper limits on these properties just to keep the game working. I think what I specifically said, and what you fail to understand, was:
Nope. I didn’t consider any particular build or character or class while I was thinking about this, I considered only the attributes themselves. In the case of the Monk, if a situation arose that was similar to the situation of CDR or RCR, or any of those other three, then I imagine the developers would find the need to impose some upper limit. But in the same sense as not permitting RCR of 100%, they would have to decide what would be appropriate for the Monk in the situation you describe.
As far as your Greed Vault situation, you should really play the game more often. Until you open the chest in Greed’s Vault, you’re considered “in combat,” and are not permitted to change skills or gear. Blizzard did overlook the Paragon point situation within that realm, so you are still able to reset and reassign your Paragon points to Gold Find.
You know Meteorblade, for some reason you strike me as a smart guy. But I think a lot of the times you purposely act stupid, or purposely misunderstand what you read, just for the sake of being argumentative.
Why do you do that?
P.S. I have found a couple errors in my bow crafting formulas, so I have to fix those, and continue recording results. Four more to go!
A lot of the players that want a Paragon cap never played vanilla D3, where Paragon was capped at 100, was independent for each character, and there were 10 character slots. When you had a P100 character in each slot, you would delete one and start again, because otherwise at that point the game was over, and people liked playing.
Later, when RoS was released, players who had 10 characters at P100 were converted to account-wide P374, and the race was on!
What’s the difference between a cap and a limit? They’re just synonyms for limiting the maximum value of the stats. Regardless of whether you call them caps or limits, your suggestion was that the values in the non-Core tabs shouldn’t have caps or limits, then you go on to say that five of them should have caps or limits. I then came up with two more of the stats that would be bad if they didn’t have caps or limits. So, your fantastic suggestion that none of the 12 affixes should have limits actually boils down to 5 of the 12 affixes shouldn’t have limits.
Whereas I did, and pointed out more issues with your suggestion that you hadn’t even considered.
Once you kill Greed, and the chest drops, you are no longer in combat. After your hero is moved and stunned, you can then change into your Gold Find gear and your GF affects how much gold is dropped when you open the chest.
It’s amusing that you’d tell me to play the game more to find out that this isn’t the case. Why don’t you actually play the game and find out that I’m absolutely correct. I’ve done this dozens of times this season.
Hey, just for you, I dug through my screenshots…
In that screenshot I had killed greed, swapped into my GF gear (that you can see equipped), then opened the chest and took the screenshot to show the amount of gold received.
1 Like
I’d rather see it handled on a diminishing type scale where the more points you invest into something, the less each point is worth. Sure you can put 300 points in CHC for lets say 21% crit. Or you could put 100 points in CHC, CHD and RCR for 14% CHC/CHD/RCR.
Arbitrary values for % increases
1pt - 1%
2pts - 1.9%
3pts - 2.7%
5pts - 4%
10pts - 7%
20pts - 9%
50pts - 12%
100pts - 15%
200pts - 18% etc etc etc
It allows for infinite customization into being specalized or a jack of trades and master of none. You can make up a bit of your gear’s short comings. Plus if you add more choices to choose from, it allows for a broad customization without giving the super high levels that much power over medium levels of investment. It also pushes more back to the gear and character side then having all of the power come from a form of AA.