@MarioDragon:
Where are you getting your information from or are you just quoting your feelies? Please tell me you have more than Steam survey. The only time they would be able to count Linux users is if the player has the Steam app open in Linux at the point when the survey is taken. If I’m in D3 at that time, that means I’m on Windows 10. I don’t run Steam upon boot up or login (the same goes for b-net launcher) so, they would not be able to include me and many others. I don’t remember them announcing the dates/times of their surveys either so there isn’t a way to coordinate collection/participation.
So I know you have more sources beyond Steam survey. Also, I would be interested in the last 20 to 30 survey results.
Yeah, the Steam survey results are definitely biased in a few different ways that means the results won’t accurately reflect the number of Linux desktop users. Or even the number of Linux users in the gaming population. Because a sizable chunk of Linux users who are gamers will dual-boot with Windows and probably run Steam on Windows at least some, if not most, of the time.
I sure do. Outside of gaming, I’m primarily a Linux user. And while I do have Steam installed on Linux on a couple devices, and I do use it some of the time, 90% of the time I spent in Steam I’m booted into my Windows partition.
That being said, the % of Linux desktop users still isn’t very high. Higher than 0.8%? Yeah, almost certainly. But we’re only talking something like 2-3%. Linux has done really well in lots of other spaces, but desktop adoption still isn’t particularly high.
Another good source of % of Linux users with a large sample size is browser statistics. That type of data also has problems and biases, e.g. the portion of Linux vs. Windows users that actually visit the sites that do the tracking isn’t necessarily reflective of the portion of Linux users in the population.
So while the 0.8% is probably biased and a bit lower than the real Linux desktop user share, his point still stands. We aren’t exactly dominating the desktop market.
However Steam survey shows the percentage of players who have to use Linux for gaming. This is simple - since the game is not something like a mobile game you play 5 minutes every time and leave, it doesn’t seem too bad to reboot into Windows if you have one.
And if you don’t have a windows, you are one of the 0.8%.
This is where I disagree. The low % numbers just is based on feelings mostly. For most Linux users they try it out and if they like it the just keep going. The majority do not announce to the world that they’ve switched. They don’t take out full page ads in the NY Times, WaPo, etc. They just use it and maybe share their experience with a small group of people they are connected to.
Windows users, and gamers in particular, just assume everyone else is on Windows. Its not like there is a massive global marketing campaign for desktop Linux. What is definitely in the super tiny minority is people, like me and you, who announce in a public forum, such as this one, that they are a primary Linux user.
So, the mis-perception begets the chicken and egg scenario (mis-perception #1):
only a tiny % of users use Linux
tiny % of users = tiny pool of customers
tiny pool of customers = not worth the time/$$ to target
The above leads to mis-perception #2:
As long as mis-perception #1 persists Linux will never ever be worth targeting
Here is where the mis-perception fails:
Google’s entire business is based on Linux (that includes Android and gaming on Android)
Multiple other companies have build their business on Google and google services.
Google Stadia game console is just yet another custom Linux distro. in pretty packaging and its release is just around the corner.
Google Stadia will make heavy use of Vulkan in the games.
Valve/Steam!.. don’t really need to explain this one.
Feral Interactive (porting Windows games to Linux with a high degree of parity in performance).
Here is the real biggie…
.
.
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Microsoft sees Linux as a priority. Seriously, google “ms linux distro”. As I said in another post, Microsoft pulled a Roberto Duran and gave up the fight against Linux when they released windows 10 for free (technically earlier than that).
This is a bad source of information. I use browser plug-ins on Firefox to anonymize myself and obscure my browsing activity. What the web servers see is Firefox for Android, when I surf. However, I don’t bother on Windows because there is only a limited number of sites I visit when in Windows. I also have True Type fonts installed which further obscures the digital finger print used to identify my desktop. Basically, I can tell a web server that I’m connecting via Firefox on a PDP-11, DEC Ultrix, or IBM AiX.
Not everyone bothers with obscuring and anonymizing themselves on the web. However, I find that if a site is looking to feed malicious script code to Windows or Android users and I’m on Linux, I’m doing fine. I know folks will lean on anti-virus software, but there is safety being basically invisible to bad actors.
Side Note: Since Windows users are a ripe target for virus writers, crackers, and malicious web script authors, its a reason not to run WINE.
The survey results are skewed. No one has to use Linux. If one is gaming on a PC from 2008 and beyond, one can run plenty of games just fine, including D3. Again, if I’m in D3 on Windows and Steam kicks off their hardware survey, my Linux install won’t be counted thus lowering the number of detected Linux users. Tinne explains other ways the results are skewed. Steam does not do a data collection every time you open the Steam launcher.
I’m not sure if you get my point because I think I understood what Tinne said.
If you have a windows installed on your PC to play games, there is no point for a game company to make a linux release, unless it’s only a few commands/clicks away - which is possible on smaller and less optimized games, which use general engine.
When a game company makes decision on which platforms to release, the only concern is cost and profit. If you have a windows environment to play the game, you are not part of the “profit”.
1 - I think Mac gamers and console players would take issue with your statement.
2 - You just restated the chicken and egg scenario for Linux. Windows isn’t the only viable option for general computing and gaming specifically. I only use Windows 10 for Blizzard games. I’ve abandoned Windows otherwise. Blizzard games are the only thing anchoring me to Windows.
I’ve been switching/upgrading to better computing options since the 1990s. High School:
Commodore 128 => Apple Mac (in a professional setting)
College:
Commodore 128 => Tandy (cheap IBM clone) + MSDOS
Tandy => custom built 386 + Windows => 486 + Windows + Linux
Post College:
486 => Dual Pentium Pro Windows + Linux => Core2duo + Windows + Linux
Ryzen 7 3700x + 64-bit Linux + 64-bit Native Linux Blizzard games
When I moved from DOS to Windows I stopped buying DOS software. Now I’m on Linux and I have no desire to buy Windows software. I’ve made the exception so far with Blizzard games. Buying Windows software is basically backwards to me. Some Linux gamers use WINE or Proton, but why should I run a translation layer setup just to support Windows. No one buys a pure electric car (Linux) then decides that they should bolt-on a gas tank, internal combustion engine, and buy gasoline (Windows). I’ll spend money with companies/organizations who support the Linux platform. I’m looking for Blizz to get with the program and support Linux so, I can continue to do business with them.
I’m not the only Linux switcher that games on Linux. Linux is gaining support in the gaming industry (see my prior posts above). The number of gamers switching to Linux is only going to increase and has been steadily increasing over the years. Mac gamers aren’t switching to Windows they are coming to Linux.
3 - Your idea of only a few commands/clicks away for small, less optimized games with some simplified general engine comes from being pretty much misinformed.
See:
There are fully fledged, sophisticated games running 64-bit native on Linux and have been for more than 10 years.
I’m sure there are more considerations beyond cost and profit. Windows gamers are part of the profit scenario because Blizz intends to make a Windows version of the game or they wouldn’t. Maybe you mistyped that last part? However, I’ve addressed the cost and profit parts. The cost on the Linux side is mostly the same as Windows. Its not like a Windows game developer is getting paid $60k to $120k and a Linux game developer is starting at $250k. Even if Linux game devs start at $300k annually, Blizz intends to make billions of dollars so the cost to profit ratio is negligible. 99% of AAA rated games are built using C/C++ and Assembly. Those tools have been on Linux from the start. Again, check out that Gaming On Linux article in regards to Doom 2016.
…or take a look at the polish of Deus Ex Mankind Divided back in 2016:
Come back after you’ve done some Googling/Youtubing. Remember you can stay on Windows if you like. No one is forcing you to leave Windows or asking Blizz to skip Windows and only release on Linux.
Windows 10 is terrible, but if one has no idea what else is out there then it looks great to them. If you were given as a gift today, a brand new 4 door 2002 BMW coup, with a grand total of 11 miles (not 11,000), you would most likely be excited. Let’s assume it was sitting in some in-door garage, safe, sound and unused by a collector. If you found out that you could have gotten as a gift a brand new 2019 Telsa 4 door electric coup instead, you might feel cheated. This is the same with Windows gamers.
Windows gamers generally don’t have good up-to-date information about Linux. They generally have bad rumor mill and hearsay. As I’ve said in prior posts, Microsoft has already forfeited the fight against Linux. Windows 10 was given away for free at release. They even gave users of pirated copies of prior versions a Windows a free upgrade path to Windows 10. The bulk of the money they make off of Windows 10 is through their data collection activities (spyware). Since big data is the new modern day oil, Microsoft expects to make way more money through data collection than selling the OS + licenses.
This is just one perspective on a Windows to Linux gamer experience:
However, I would advise you to take sometime to see what is out there and what you like. Linux will suit the needs of most people. If one is using some seriously off the beaten path hardware or require very specific software then they may be stuck on Windows for a while longer.
Lastly, what one might call a potato PC generally runs like a champ with Linux.
You keep saying linux is an option of gaming. I don’t really agree but I don’t want to spend time looking for reference to support my point, so you win the debate over me. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to spend any time on it. Some of my friends are linux fans too so I think you’ll never give up on your point.
But does winning the debate has any impact? You actually want to pursuade blizzard and you need some data to support the point that investing in making a linux release is profitable. I guess you’re not saying they should make a linux release to lose money, right?
This isn’t about winning or losing. However, as you’ve stated, you haven’t done any research. You are welcome to your opinion, but the facts don’t support your opinion. You didn’t even bother to look at the videos I linked.
So let’s look at the facts:
Are the 3 major PC video hardware manufacturers providing optimized video driver support?
Yes. AMD, nVidia, and Intel. Intel has thus far been pushing their low quality 2D integrated graphics hardware but has plans on introducing beefier hardware in upcoming/future CPU products. Gaming is a critically important activity on PCs and the video hardware manufacturers know this so they make it a priority. AMD and nVidia have been providing optimize video drivers for Linux for more than 10 years.
Are the multiple, modern game engines available for Linux?
Yes. I simple google search for “linux game engines” reveals a long list of game engines. Many are on Windows, Linux and Mac OS. Unreal Engine, Unity, Unigine, and id Tech 4 are just a few of the many.
Is there high quality, optimized graphics API support?
Yes. OpenGL, Vulkan and I think Mesa. Vulkan is an open standard API successor to OpenGL. Vulkan is on Windows, Mac, Linux and many other platforms. It can outperform DX12 on Windows. If you have nVidia hardware and up-to-date drivers, then you already have Vulkan. Since its on multiple platforms it makes porting games to multiple platforms easier.
Are there companies with Linux game porting expertise?
Yes. Feral Interactive is one of them. Feral ported Shadow of Mordor, Rise of the Tomb Raider, and Deus Ex to Linux, to name just a few. Blizzard might want to enter into a partnership with Feral. This would be similar to their partnership with Netease, the Chinese game developer that is working on Immortal.
Does Linux support up-to-date PC gaming hardware?
Yes. Keyboards, mice, video cards, monitors, sound hardware, headsets, microphones, bat-wing controllers, etc. Linux runs on a wide variety of CPUs, but for PC’s its Intel and AMD CPUs. This includes all of the latest AMD Ryzen CPUs. Its the same equipment you use in Windows.
Voice-Comm support?
Yes. Discord is available for Linux. TeamSpeak as well.
What about the tools developers need like compilers, debuggers?
Yes. There is a wide variety of compilers (C, C++, Pascal, Assembler, etc).
What is the performance like?
Go check out the youtube videos. Equal to Windows, near equal to Windows, and some surpass windows performance.
What game companies are involved with Linux?
Valve/Steam, GoG, EPIC, Square ENIX, GamesWorkshop, Google, and many more.
When you look at the fact one has to wonder what kind of twisted thought process does Blizzard have for not making Linux a priority release target for their games. If Linux were not viable for gaming and there wasn’t a wide gaming audience, there would not be a large number of major players putting eggs into to the Linux basket.
You are exactly right. I have my opinion but although I sametimes say it, I don’t want to persuade anybody with it. Changing my mind doesn’t give me any benefit either so I’m too lazy to investigate the possibility of gaming with linux.
Why no benefit at all? because I use linux at work every day, so I know the problem it may cause is far more than the problem it may solve.
Based on my personal experience, I will not use linux on my personal computer for entertainment. Based on my personal usage, it has nothing better than a win 10 pro. At home I don’t want to be as careful as working. I’ll also strongly advise against anyone to use linux if I’m asked: asking the question means you’re not expert, and thus the answer.
Back to the topic, you’re still saying linux is capable of gaming (salute to linux fans who can solve every problems by themselves!) and companies are making games on it. This is very likely true; I’m not arguing against it. But for a non-expert it’s not easy to setup everything.
The arguable thing is, you didn’t say the companies gain profit from making linux release. That’s still my point - bring up some data, not examples.
If examples count, here is one: Logitech gaming mouse has no drive in linux either (I checked 2 years ago), so you can’t configure its side buttons in linux, although they’re usable in linux if you have a mac/win to configure them.
Ok. https://www.logitech.com/en-us/mice?filters=3923
If you click platform, a menu expands and has an option for “Linux”. If you select MX Master 3, and scroll down toward the bottom of the page, it says in the system requirements section:
Requires: Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10 or later
macOS 10.13 or later, Linux
Maybe the mouse from 2 years ago doesn’t have a Linux driver. It is possible that Logitech doesn’t support that product anymore and only newer mice are getting Linux drivers. I don’t like side buttons on mice so i don’t buy those products.
As for companies gaining profit, I would pose the same question back to you in regard to how companies are going to make a profit from the Windows, Xbox, and PS-4 platforms.
Please explain the statement above?
I believe I put together a list of recommended distros. I would avoid targeting distros like Gentoo at release. Gentoo, is really meant for advanced Linux users who customize and optimize their system. Gentoo users generally will custom compile packages and updates that are on the bleed edge.
Just as I would recommend against Gentoo, I would recommend against Red Hat Linux and Cent OS which are meant for corporate server environments.
I have no idea, and this is common sense to me. You’re the one who is trying to pursuade others and if you can provide any data, I’ll be convinced.
Still not easy. Installing an OS - including Win/MacOS - is not pleasant to most of people, and most Gaming PCs are sold with Windows preinstalled.
I’ll say recommended distros are the answer to those who are determined to try linux, not those who want to make a decision whether to try linux.
For my statement of " the problem it may cause is far more than the problem it may solve", it’s because there is nothing I really need from linux, if not at work.
Is there anything more convenient in linux than in win? I’m not aware of, at least not in my daily routine. I don’t code much out of work. When I do I use Python, and PyCharm can help me install packages in a few clicks.
Linux has some security advantages but nowdays windows is already OK. I don’t think I need the linux security advantages at home, and if improperly configured it loses the advantages. Personal PC which doesn’t have a public IP is not very vulnerable too.
And for problems - the lack of Logitech Gaming Software is enough to me. I’m also using some other windows-only softwares but they’re just too specific to myself.
I didn’t really use the latest version of your recommended distros but for those I’ve used, when I have a problem the solution is usually some command or manual change configs, which is too hard for non-expert.
For example, mapping a key to another on my keyboard. There are simple softwares with UI in windows and mac but I didn’t find one in linux (maybe there are some now, but not when I was looking for them afew years ago). I have to learn the rule of xmodmap and how to make them run when I boot my computer. Not hard for me but I can’t imagine this to be done by someone who has no knowledge on coding.
This is not a Linux issue or problem. Gaming keyboards, mice, headsets, and RGB lighting are product specific and use proprietary protocols/standards. The software used in windows is developed by the manufacturer. The product manufacturer has to be persuaded to port their custom software to Linux or release thorough documentation so that folks in the community can take on the work. There are some people in the community who have taken the it upon themselves to hack together Linux software for some products. This is done without the support or blessing of the manufacturers in most cases. You would have to google search to find their projects. Having the custom software on while in Windows does not confer an advantage to Windows because the software is IP of the manufacturer not Microsoft. It is beneficial to have to software.
I’m in the same boat as you with not having full configurable functionality with respect to my g-Skill 780MX gaming keyboard. The configuration software is only available on Windows. However, macros are loaded into the keyboard’s memory as far as I can tell so, any macro changes on Windows would remain beyond a reboot to Linux. I have not tried to get the software to run on WINE nor have I attempted to hack together a workaround.
Lastly, gaming hardware should not be synonymous with macros. I don’t employ macros when gaming and I don’t care for RGB lighting.
If you talking about some sort of feasibility study I’ve already provided enough information about feasibility. How will game developing/publishing companies make on money on Linux. Sell compelling products. Its the same as Windows or any other platform. If you are talking about some sort of market research or profitability study, you can expect that I will provide some info., which I’ve already done, and let the folks who get paid to do that, do the work. However, let me reiterate some simple concepts you:
All PC gamers, who are assumed to be Windows gamers, who’s hardware belongs to the Intel/AMD/nVidia platform are potentially Linux users and by extension potentially Linux gamers. Linux runs on the same PC hardware that Windows runs on with respect to PC games and Blizzard games. Therefore:
calculate the size of (number of units) the relevant PC hardware pool in use
estimate the percentage of the pool that are potential gamers on Windows
assume that anywhere from 0-99.9% of the potential Windows gamers are potential Linux gamers
any Windows user can potentially dual boot Windows and Linux or run Linux from a USB stick
all Windows gamers and PC Linux gamers are just PC gamers
For the average, non-tech savvy gamer, would have trouble installing an operating system so this is not a disadvantage to either Windows, Linux or Mac OS. This is a lack of knowledge and understand of the individual. My recommended distros list was directed at Blizz management/devs. However, several of the distros on my list are considered newbie friendly/popular. Simple guides and youtube videos can help the newbie user get Linux installed with minimal effort.
I would expect most OEM gaming PCs to come with Windows preloaded unless the OEM is specifically targeting the Linux user market (ex: Dell, System 76). However, most gamers custom build their PCs so “Windows preloaded” is irrelevant. Even the most non-tech savvy gamer is assumed to be a google/youtube search junkie, thus a simple search in youtube for “gaming pc 2019” will reveal a plethora of how to build your own budget gaming PC guide videos. For those who want a lazy option can use services like Geek Squad to get the PC assembled and an OS installed on it (be it Windows or Linux).
Recommended distros that are newbie friendly to a newbie are just that. There is no additional subtext to read into. If you watched the videos I linked you would know that at least one of them is a guide that explains the good/bad of Linux gaming and how to get started (including the USB key option).
I never compared convenience of either OS. Convenience in Windows 10 comes at a cost. One must allow Microsoft to harvest data based on usage activities (forfeit privacy) and give up control over the hardware that they paid. Giving up control comes in the form of forced updates, forced changes, and unnecessary software that can not be easily uninstalled. Linux has the flexibility advantage. However, taking full advantage of that potential comes at the cost of a steep learning curve.
Linux is much better at resource management, and tends not to come bloated by default. Windows 10 by default runs lots of unnecessary software (all of the Xbox, tablet PC, and spyware crap) which slows down the system. Some stuff can be disabled/uninstalled with a small amount of effort and the use of a guide, while other stuff requires a Powershell script which is well beyond the skill set of 99.9999% of Windows gamers.
I’m going to disagree with you and push back. A windows PC, on the web, without anti-virus software, is like unprotected sex. I know that Win 10 comes with a cheapy MS supplied A/V package. Its good enough until one buys something like Norton A/V or McAfee A/V. There are freebie A/V shareware packages which are a step above the MS supplied A/V but cannot compete with Norton/McAfee. I know this from experience in dealing with so many malware and virus infected home PCs where someone in a family accidentally clicked something they didn’t know was malicious.
Average users are don’t mess with config. files and this includes gamers. When something breaks in Linux the command line maybe required. On windows there are some convenience apps. for diagnostics/repair but most users will have to google search for solutions and rely on a guide to help steer them though fixing the problem. Google searching or asking for help in a forum (or on IRC), on the Linux side, is nearly the equivalent of what the Windows user is required to do to solve a problem. Non-experts on both OSes require hand holding, thus neither has an advantage.
Forgive me, but based on your statement you do not sound like you program on Linux as your day job and use Windows for personal use at home. Its like you have no understanding of where that custom software is coming from (not Microsoft). Just like with your mouse, the software is coming from the manufacturer. Your mouse and keyboard are IP of their respective manufacturers and those manufacturers can choose whether or not to make custom software for Linux. This does not confer an advantage to Windows. It is a benefit provided by the manufacturer to make their products more attractive than whatever competing products.
Keep in mind that what I’m asking for is not an either/or proposition. I’m asking for an optimized 64-bit native Linux game client to be developed in parallel with the Windows version of the game, and released simultaneously.
Game play:
OSes should not benefit or hinder game play, and should not get involved in game play.
Game development:
There are developer tools for both OSes. On Linux there are C/C++ compilers that are freely available. Microsoft will charge a hefty price for Visual Studio.
Gamer satisfaction:
Satisfaction level within a game has nothing to do with the OS.
An optimized 64-bit native Linux game client will allow one to run the game on Linux without the need for emulator and translation layer software (WINE). The D3 you run from the launcher is a 32-bit or 64-bit Windows native game client.
I totally agree with the Linux native game idea but I’m not holding my breath. I’ve been a Linux user since 1997 and a D1, D2 and D3 player, and future D4 player.
I don’t boot into Windows to play D3 and never have. I only have to boot into Windows to patch D3. I have played D3 on my Linux machine since it was released. I used wine and had no issues with the game until recently when I upgraded from Linux Mint 17 to 18 and it broke my wine setup. I spent 6 months trying to figure out how to run D3 on Mint 18 then I gave up and installed vmware. I made a vmware Win 8.1 client which runs D3 rather well. I know this is not want you are wanting and I always hate when I ask “how do I do this” and someone answers with “you should do it my way instead” but I’m just saying this is an option. I don’t have to boot into windows to play D3, just to update it. For some reason the Battle(.)Net app on VMware does not work. I upgrade on windows transfer to thumb drive. Boot into Linux run VMware and copy the files from the thumb drive and play D3.
Thanks Joe. WINE is a wonderful achievement and a testament to how good Linux and the community is. However, the stuff you outlined is exactly why I don’t run WINE. I don’t have time to tinker with WINE when something breaks. WINE really should have been a temporary measure to bridge the access gap. However, lazy corporate interests, misinformation, ignorance, etc., have turn it into a permanent fixture.
We can easily cut down any supposed logical reasons for why a gaming company would not target Linux, and the blade’s edge is swiftly slicing through the bone and flesh of the emotional and illogical reasons why a company would not target Linux. I personally do not like Windows 10 and I don’t agree with Microsoft’s choices/practices. I have no desire to support Microsoft and the Windows platform. Running WINE amounts to indirect support of the Windows platform and by extension Microsoft. Those that want to use WINE are free to do so and I have no criticism of their choice. Those that want to use Windows are also free to do so and I don’t criticize their choice either.
I want to continue to do business with Blizzard and I’ve been accommodating their resistance to Linux with a dedicated Blizzard games partition in my PC. This dedicated setup won’t last forever. Other gaming companies/publishers are getting the “No Tux? No bucks!” response from me. If it isn’t 64-bit, optimized, Linux native (no emulation/translation) then I don’t spend money with those other gaming companies. I can’t force Blizzard onto Linux, but I can appeal to them and the community. I’ve been providing evidence for why Blizzard should get on the Linux platform and info. on how they can go about doing it. I’m not saying Blizzard should abandon their Windows customers. I’m saying they should give the same level of priority and focus to their Linux customers.
Changing my mind doesn’t give me any benefit either so I’m too lazy to investigate the possibility of gaming with linux.