On character customization by basis of player decision making

General Discussion
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If you want character customization to distinctly separate individuality from class-build templates then you’ll need to devise a system that has an impact throughout progression. This means that the decisions a player makes takes place every level and will result in a different ‘final product’ than the next person as a result.

For example: Let’s use the diablo 2 attribute points that were given every level. You acquired 5 attribute points to allocate however you felt appropriate to your liking. The problem with this system is, the end result is still the same. If I allocate my acquired attribute points every level the end result will be the same as if for example another person waited until the maximum hard cap level to do the same. That is self-defeating when the purpose of such a system is distinguishing one players decision making from another’s decision making.

I’ll use vitality as an example since it is pretty familiar for many. If I spent all my points in vitality every level until I ran out of points at maximum level I will have an increased health pool. No different than if someone was carried to maximum level and then allocated all their points into vitality. The remedy to this is simple. If at level 2 I spent my points on vitality, I get an immediate effect (increased health) but also a progression effect (I gain more health the next time I level from having more vitality) then the person that was carried but dumped all their points into vitality wouldn’t have as much health as the person who chose to spend points on vitality during each level.

The tricky part is creating equal opportunity among the choices. I gather a lot of people don’t want this, and blizzard understands that enough people don’t want this as they removed the player decided attribute system completely in d3.

If the only thing that differentiates class build templates from each other is a factor that is easily negated by a person simply changing their mind you’re going to end up with cookie cutter builds. You can alleviate this somewhat with itemization, but to do so will also be tricky and even still, doesn’t distinguish builds from one another should identical or even similar items exist as options for the players to choose from.

If what you want is true character customization that has at the root player choice that is what you’ll need to do. A player needs to decide every time they level which way their block of clay is sculpted. Without the option to simply start over once they hit maximum hard cap level. Otherwise, you don’t actually want character customization with player choice as the factor that provides such difference. You simply provide the illusion that player choice is meaningful when it really is not.

Something like this:

Character levels up, spends all points on strength, which increases maximum damage for melee. At level 2, my minimum damage for melee increases since I had more strength upon leveling than I did at level 1.

Character levels up, spends all points on dexterity, which increases maximum damage for ranged attacks. At level 2, minimum damage for ranged attacks increases since the character had more of that stat upon leveling.

This way a player is making decisions every level that effect what increases their character acquires every time they level.

It may be more work than it’s worth to devise and balance out, but people that claim they want meaningful character customization based off the decisions they make yet insist that they don’t want to be penalized for not making “optimal” choices don’t actually want character customization at all. They just want their character to be the best it can be without any trial and error whatsoever. Which only serves to reduce longevity of the game. Without the ‘un-needed’ complexities the gameplay gets reduced to…

clickity click gg /flex

Happy New Years Eve!

3 Likes
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I have been thinking for a while.
We are playing a role playing game, why are all choices just about how we put skill points? The least interesting thing that made a character.

We are not just defined by the sunniest we took or the profession Choice. We are define sure, by our professional choice, but also what we achieved, the things and people affected by us, Etc.

Why are arpg char reduce to just skills and attributes? I argue that putting emphasis on games choice ( who we suppose, killed and help, how the world shape due to our actions ) are more impactful in a character. Making decisions permanent ( person you killed never returns, someone you betray better allies with you) are far more impactful.

Our characters should have biography that stay with us. This is how I want to define my char, not just someone who used fireball as main skill.

2 Likes
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TLDR
Anyway this wont work because

  • you don’t know how the skills work in a new game, which is good, which is bad and which suits you. Unless you wait until 2 months after launch and then read a lot of online guides before you ever make your first character.
  • you don’t know which drops you get and if they are suitable for what you are planning

So I’d rather try everything available by making the meaningful decision to hit the free respec button whenever it suits me.

1 Like
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Honestly this seems less like it would accomplish meaningful choice and more that it would accomplish most people’s first characters being bad because nobody knew where to put their attributes so they just threw them wherever.

That and screwing over people if they ever make balance changes that affect the attributes.

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I’m all for an alignment system.

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I like the idea that customization is more than just our skills and attributes, though I’m not sure that choices being permanent in a Diablo game makes them a whole lot more impactful than a choice that is just very difficult to undo.

That is unless they massively increase the time it takes to level a new character compared to previous games in the series. If I can roll a brand new character in less than a day, all that permanent choice is going to really do is get me to throw away old characters I made bad choices on before I knew better.

Which in the sense of a RPG, feels a bit weird to roll a character I know I wont actually keep playing that’s being used purely to gain meta knowledge of the system’s choices.

Of course one could always make the story based choices such as NPCs you’ve killed or factions you’ve joined more superficial in nature and not have a huge impact on your actual gameplay, but then people revert back to “It’s not meaningful choice” since ultimately the choice doesn’t really matter.

Personally I’d rather see our choices be something we can change, but that we can’t change on a whim and actually have to put in effort to be able to change it.

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There shouldn’t be any ‘bad’ decisions when it comes to character customization that pertain to the base class-template. Just ones that are less specialized (exact purpose builds) from lack of game knowledge. If you have bad options available you’ve got a much bigger issue than lack of compelling gameplay. With a comprehensive explanation of how the systems work a person will know good and well what decisions they’re making before making them.

Trial and error is the name of the game. If it doesn’t take forever and a day to ‘complete’ your characters progression re-rolling is a fun and enjoyable way to improve your builds. It is NOT when the tedium of progressing is equivalent to yay diminishing returns for a 1% increase in power. More time invested for smaller reward is counterintuitive to learning and mastering a system. Time investment required = progress is not equivalent to ‘becoming more difficult’ not in the slightest. Nor does it have anything to do with mastering anything. It revolves around sinking more time into that easy to learn part.

It gets even spicier when you have items that increase + stats so that, what you’re wearing, when you level, also contribute towards how your block of clay is sculpted. It also allows items obtained at various phases of progression stay relevant, since I might want to re-roll a character that uses all my +vitality or what have you each level.

It really boils down to how long it should take to progress. Forever favors 1 character for life. About a month and you can start integrating re-roll mechanics that are much more enjoyable than hey look at this hamster wheel it keeps spinning that looks like fun!

/vomits

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Maybe if you lost trust in an NPC, he will Not be in service to you for a period until you gain trust again via quests or something.

Maybe certain areas are forbidden or hostile if you did a quests against people in these region. Some minor „game
Of throne“ where you decide who you ally and who to fight.

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To clarify when I say bad choices I don’t mean bad in the sense that the attribute or skill is bad for everything. I mean choices that are bad for the build you’re going for.

It’s also worth keeping in mind that just because we might enjoy rolling new characters doesn’t mean that everybody finds that fun. Focusing on one character is something a lot of people like to do in RPGs.

and if you make the choice simply difficult to undo rather than impossible, you still get the trial and error part of the game.

Under no circumstances should temporary stat bonuses from gear permanently affect your per level stat gains. A character’s base stats should not be better just because you had a high level feeding them top end gear at low levels.

Constantly rerolling characters so that I can make them slightly more powerful each time by feeding them better and better gear that I’ve found along the way is also counter-intuitive to learning and mastering a system.

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Fair enough. We have different philosophies for what is enjoyable in a game.

But people that prefer playing 1 character will still re-roll when their selected class doesn’t amount to anything other than underperformance. You will also have those who prefer only playing one class but can’t stand the idea of being inferior by inherent design/balance adjustments aka “flavor of the patch” that is pretty common in blizzards rpgs and as such will level up multiple characters simply for the sake of having the option of playing with a build that is not at a constant underperformance.

You’re not going to get away from higher levels feeding lower levels. It is human nature to attempt gaining a competitive edge.

Constantly rerolling characters offers diversity. Which is healthy to longevity. For players like myself that don’t welcome the time sink with open arms.

Different strokes for different folks mmhmm

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If people can adjust their choices then they wont need to re-roll, unless they run into a case of simply not liking the class(which is something that can’t really be helped).

If they do balance changes that change too many things around, they can also do a 1 time free full refund of points like Path of Exile does.

You’re not going to get away from people wanting to feed lower level characters but that doesn’t mean we should give those people even more advantages over the people who didn’t do that.

Personally I do like rolling new characters, but I’m also thinking about the people who don’t. I don’t need rewards that place me above the people who didn’t roll multiple characters in order to have fun with the build variety I can get out of having multiple characters.

If we can have a system where I still get all my fun of making multiple characters but we don’t need to make the people with a single character feel like they’re lesser than me because they only made 1 character, then that sounds like a better overall system.

This is a Diablo game. There shouldn’t really be one “correct” way of playing beyond the very basic premise of “kill demons, get loot”.

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If people can adjust their choices where is the meaning behind making the choice? It is a harsh lesson to learn when the people that only like playing one character whom also desire that it take forever and a day to progress that character change their mind. If you’re making balance changes the way that D3 does you’ve done something terribly wrong.

It is about the player making meaningful decisions and not contributing to this false ideology that anyone walking this earth is infallible.

Kill demons, get loot. Now that sounds compelling. Stop lying to your fanbase if you want to promote this idea of difficult to master if that is all it really amounts to in this diablo franchise. Lest you further animosity from buyers remorse for false advertising.

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If they take effort to undo or change they’re still significant, as the choices should still change the way your character plays and they’re not something you can change on a whim.

Also I didn’t say make balance changes like Diablo 3, but even Diablo 2 made balance changes throughout its lifespan. Blizzard quite simply cannot anticipate every combination that we’ll come up with once the game goes live. No developer can.

Where did I say that is all that it amounts to? I said that’s the very basic premise of the game. That’s also the premise of the first 2 Diablo games, and they had advanced mechanics you could learn.

and you want to talk about lying to promote the idea of difficult to master? Your system actively discourages mastering a character.

Under your system the best character is made by the person who farmed the most low level gear to maximize per level gains, not the person who has actually mastered the game’s mechanics.

You’ve just created another time sink that you claim to dislike so much.

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If you aren’t taking into consideration every possible combination before launch you’re going about things in a way that is destined to lack equilibrium. It really is as simple as mathematics.

You must have a different idea of what mastering a character means. Mastering a build and optimizing the clothes that it wears when such is based off of RNG has nothing to do with mastering the character. Mastering the character would be getting a feel for the handling of it, knowing its strengths and weaknesses, etc.

It’s not my system. I’m taking a very broad range of experience into consideration on actual game play mechanics here. Including games that don’t even have graphics (Multi User Domain/Dungeons) which ONLY have game mechanics to study and take into account. Mastering the game’s mechanics as it pertains to gameplay is getting the hang of the timing of the meteor drops, the handling of the player and the arsenal at their disposal. I’ll take a time sink reduced to a fraction of what it is and has been over the forever and a day grind any week, month, or year of the Gregorian calendar.

The best character is made by a person that understands and has mastered the difficult part of the system. Simplifying the system so that it is easy to learn and easy to master will only appeal to the simplistic targeted audience. I’ll enjoy it once through, maybe a few times through, and then the longevity will dissipate. D3 lasted a whole 2-3 weeks for me. Didn’t even touch ROS. Still won’t. That is not great news for the direction of monetization that D4 hopes to capture. Since you know, I’m not the only one and all. ROS sold half as many copies as diablo 3 in the first week. Marinate on that.

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People can make adjustment after making a wrong choice too in real life. So there is no consequences in making choice in real life also.

Of course often undoing decision isn’t hard and long process which is what being suggested which is a middle ground between freely change choices while made decision too easy, vs permanent decision that can be dealbreaker for many people.

Gamers are on average older now. Time is a big factor. The thought of making a poor decision Ansbach it’s end of your character will turn many gamers away.

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Tell that to the engineers who are knowingly ignored in their explanation that a decision will cost a company that they work for millions of dollars. Which the company then turns around and gives anything and everything to said engineers to fix said costly mistakes.

Gamers that have already experienced what has already been available to experience are getting older, meanwhile population continues at an exponentially growing rate. Meaning more younger gamers are gaming. Why redo what has already been done? Blizzard has always led the industry in pioneering gaming - to the point that other games clone their work. It does go both ways, but such is the nature of inspiration. Anyhow…

Time is a big factor. The biggest. You already have an endless time sink - the RNG of itemization. No need to multiply time sink by time sink all the while simplifying every other aspect of the game.

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It’s also not possible for them to anticipate every possible combination at every possible level of play.

As somebody who has done more theorycrafting in games than most people here: All the math in the world wont always survive first contact with reality when you add in the human factor.

I’m pretty sure I said that your suggestion isn’t about mastering the character specifically because it’s all about farming the best gear to optimize per level gains through the clothes they’re wearing.

It’s why I originally said that under no circumstances should bonuses from gear permanently affect your character. That doesn’t promote mastering your character, it promotes sinking time into playing the slot machine until you hit the gear jackpot.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that because I don’t agree with your suggestion that means I think the over simplification of Diablo 3 was a good idea.

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We disagree here. You’re surely underestimating the power of supreme mathematics. Mathematics can literally accommodate every single possible combination at every possible level of play.

I don’t.

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You’re underestimating reality and the human factor.

Not to mention once you get into things like skill floor and skill ceiling of builds, that creates gaps in how effective something can be between high and low skill players.

Sniper rifles in FPS are a classic example of something that can’t really be balanced at every level of play. They’re weapons that inherently require more skill than most other guns in a FPS, making them less effective at low skill level play than other guns.

You can also run into other factors like latency. Setups that require pinpoint timing generally perform worse on higher latency setups.

and of course bugs, which create a whole bunch of unknowns and can shift the balance of what you thought was going to happen when you did it all on paper.

If this was a problem solvable purely by using math, then every game coming out would be perfectly balanced rather than none of them.

The only way a game can be perfectly balanced is for every single thing about every player to be 100% identical in every way. If this isn’t the case, the game wont be perfectly balanced.

Not even chess is perfectly balanced. The player who goes first has a higher chance of winning.

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I like this it’s more like a DnD Constitution bonus, at 12-13 Con you get a +1, at 14-15 you get +2 and so on to your HP.
This will be hated but what if you can only put points in a given stat once per level, but that has to be based on the class.
So a Barb has 5 points per level but can use up to 4 points in a stat that helps the Str, and I know they are not going with the STR, DEX, INT, VIT or any of them.
It maybe a backward step but a good base to work from.

Yes that can also be used for or against you in a Quest chain. You may run in to a daed end if you killed someone as you leveled, how where you to know that person was related to a town leader or some such.

If need be have a Base Stat and the Enhanced Stat with Items bonus. Str base 12 + 3 from you Sword is 15 but you only be the Con Bonus of +1 because it’s coming from your base. This will be to hard for some to get their heads around.