Necro Change Suggestions By Lord Fluffy

As you guys know, I’ve pretty much been exclusively playing/streaming necro since it’s release in Season 11. Over the course of that time, the 3 biggest feedback/complaints I’ve heard about the necro are the following:

Thorns is over-performing/necro push builds are lame

Not only is thorns too strong because it takes advantage of game mechanics but it feels very dull for a few reasons.

  1. Passively doing damage solely based on getting hit is a fairly boring playstyle.
  2. You’re fishing for elite affixes that proc your thorns the best [desecrator, frozen, lightning storm, particular melee hit speed etc…], which is incredibly fishy, even for diablo’s standards. Most classes have to skip juggernauts, that’s a given. But thorns necro has to skip elites that don’t have good affixes, don’t chase, don’t attack fast enough etc etc… the list goes on.
  3. There’s no means of forcing mobs to attack your pets, which is essentially how you’re SUPPOSED to do your damage as a thorns necro.

If I’m being honest, to me, thorns is solely in the game to invoke nostalgia from Diablo 2. It’s an out-dated, passive playstyle that doesn’t really keep with the times and there are infinitely more clever pet playstyles we can push towards going forward with the necro.

Land of the Dead is in every build

While this is 95% true, a big reason this happens is because of necro’s dependency on Krysbin’s Sentence and poor means of generating corpses outside LOTD. That being said, I don’t think the play is to overhaul LOTD or remove the skill from the game, that would break necro. But pushing the sets towards a different playstyle could solve this, hence some of my decisions going forward.

Necro is so squishy

No surprise here. Although necro does have a decent supply of mitigation items unique to it’s class (IE: wisdom of kalan, golemskin, lornelle’s sunstone[which is worthless unless you’re a support class]), they either share the ever-important jewelry slot that we just can’t sacrifice or they just don’t provide enough mitigation

Now lets get to the MEAT

As a developer myself, I wanted to start with the “quick wins” in my list. These are changes that would be super easy to make that would massively impact the class. Then we’ll get into more hefty, work required ideas.

Nerf thorns

Again, I don’t really see any way around this nor is it necessarily utilizing legitimate mechanics. Although I’m not usually a fan of nerfing builds, NOT nerfing thorns prevents us from buffing other items on this list… so THE GREATER GOOD

Buff Trag'oul 6p
Drastically change or remove the "blood lance" rune 

The reason I paired these together is because if you strictly buff 6p trag, you essentially shift necro back to playing the bloodlancer from season 11. And although this is a better playstyle than LON ColdLancer, it doesn’t hold a candle to Pestilence coldlancer, which we’ll get to in a second. Assuming thorns is nerfed and blood lance isn’t a thing, we can safely buff trag’oul 6p and bring builds like blood mages and blood nova more in line with other necromancer builds.

Buff Pestilence slightly to beat out LON ColdLancer and DRASTICALLY buff bone spear damage

It wouldn’t take much, but a small buff to Pestilence is needed to bring it up to LON ColdLancer GR levels. Pestilence cold lancer is 1000% a more polished, better handling and all around better feeling build than the LON version and should be one of the go to options for pushing on the necro with pestilence. Furthermore, a massive increase in bone spear damage is needed to make the skill anything but a means of proc’ing obsidian ring of the zodiac.

New Bracer: Increases the damage of Corpse Explosion by X% if there are Y or fewer targets

This has more implications with suggestions to come but even by itself, would drastically improve farming with Corpse Explosion, which is arguably the most satisfying skill the necro has.

Buff Inarius 6p 

Kind of enough said, just needs another small boost to make it more competitive

Jesseth Set: While your skeletons are commanded to attack a target, all of your damage is increased by 400%
Command Skeletons: Enforcer or Mending - change to poison

There’s really no reason to lock this to minions, especially consider that the trade off is that you have to run skeletons on your bar. Giving this a flat 400% will make it more viable across necro builds. Also give necro’s a spammable poison rune for command skeletons for some synergy with Nayrs.

Final Service: When you take lethal damage, you are sustained preventing all damage for 4 seconds. In addition, you heal for 10% of your Life per minion. This effect cannot occur more than once every 60 seconds

Really straight forward change, consuming your minions makes pet builds dead in the water when they proc. Simply removing 3 words from this passive makes it 10000% better.

Golemskin Breaches: The cooldown on Command Golem is reduced by [20 - 25] seconds and you take 80% less damage while your golem is alive.  

This potentially solves a great deal of mitigation issues on the necromancer and has some greater implications with suggested changes coming later. While we’re at it, we could easily add the damage modifier for golem back onto this item. It didn’t make or break anything and was kind of pointless to remove.

NOW FOR THE MEATY MEAT

I’ll admit, a lot of my decisions here were based on how cool some of these un-utilized skills look. I’m also keeping all ideas in the wheelhouse of diablo. Therefore nothing that would be outside the bounds of what I feel possible with the current game engine or beyond any engineer to develop.

New Bracer: Skeletel Mage Contamination now lasts forever but you may only have 1 mage at a time.  Increases the damage of Skeletel Mage by "X%" for every enemy killed within "Y" range up to a maximum of 20.

Fates Vow: Grants the Death Valley rune & removes the cooldown on Army of the Dead but it now costs 90% of your maximum essence pool to cast.  

Command Golem: Decay Golem - significantly increase the damage per corpse consumed

Some of you may see where I’m going with this. Poison Scythe could be a really fun means of pushing the necromancer with Inarius. The problem is, in it’s current form, the damage isn’t there and the synergy is clunky. So the goal with these items is to make a proper, Necro feeling built based around poison scythe. We massively increase our damage with grimscythe via leger’s disdain. Scythe hits a relatively small area in front of you and the only means of currently dumping your essence is with singularity mage. The general premise here is you drop a contaminated skeletal mage (weak at first and stationary), use your army of the dead(with the new fate’s vow) to suck in mobs around the mage. You then swipe them to death with grim scythe, continually dumping your essence with more army of the dead casts. Killing mobs around your mage causes the mage to become stronger, eventually helping you to deal massive single target damage to whatever is left(the trade off being that the mage is stationary). This will also generate a significant amount of corpses(and we can’t waste those :slight_smile: ), therefore we’ll be using the active ability on decay golem to create a super powerful golem to also aid in the single target damage. We can stack poison skills here and make use of Nayr’s black death in the cube. This would effectively be the first melee pet build in diablo 3 and an incredibly unique playstyle that utilizes some extremely cool looking spells in the game.

Bone Prison Passive Rework: Blood Spells have a 15% to stun targets hit for 1.5 seconds & traps the target in bone prison for 3 seconds

Trag'oul's Avatar:
    Now has a necklace
    6p: All Life-spending abilities deal 3800% increased damage. Healing from skills is increased by 100%.  Increases the damage of corpse explosion for every corpse in "X" radius up to a maximum of 15

Iron Rose: Attacking with Siphon Blood has a 100% chance to cast a free Blood Nova while also granting the healing effect of the tendril nova rune

Trag’oul’s Avatar now becomes an entirely new way of pushing on the necro. The idea is we use death nova procs from iron rose to deal heavy aoe damage. The problem, of course, with death nova is that it has zero single target damage. How do we solve this? Since these iron rose death nova’s are free to cast, we don’t have to run devour, thus there will be a plethora of corpses on the ground after our blood novas have wiped out all the trash. The new corpse explosion bracers allow us to use the insanely cool looking final embrace rune (a blood skill) in conjuction with our increased 6p trag damage to deal massive single target damage to the big single targets left behind from our AOE nova’ing. The bone prison passive gives us a way of proc’ing krysbin without running dislocation or land of the dead nor would LOTD help this build as it requires actual corpses on the ground to get the damage buff and LOTD just gives you corpse skills for free. We could also run high CDR to reduce the flesh golem timer and perhaps even use moribund gauntlets to generate a pile of corpses should we run out.

Bones of Rathma Rework
    2p: consuming a corpse with Revive triggers devour:cannibilize
    4p: 2% increased mitigation for each active minion
    6p: Increases the damage of revive by "X%" for each active minion.  The cooldown of BoneSpirit is reduced by 10 seconds and travels 1000% faster

Originally, I was going to leave Rathma alone but there’s no scenario where Rathma becomes a better playstyle than LON Mage. In blizzard’s blog about the future of Diablo 3 they mentioned adding a new set, immediately my brain went to a revive set for the new set but again… I don’t see rathma ever getting used again in it’s current form because of how good the LON version is. So I figured why not make Rathma the pet set. The idea is pretty straight forward, summon literally everything the necromancer has to offer to have an army of undead minions at your disposal. Leaving you to maintain your mages, cast curses and cast Bone Spirit: Posession to get even more minions under your control(synergy with 4p&6p) . I also increased the speed of bone spirit because it’s ridiculously slow and you would be standing at range in this build which could be unbelievably frustrating. 2p is basically just to keep up essence costs of maintaining curses and skeletel mages.

This leaves the new set to focus on an entirely different section of the necro that is not utilized, my suggestion? Bone spear :slight_smile:

57 Likes

I agree with ALL of this, save one. The change to Final Service makes it the best Cheat Death in the game, by like a factor of 2 or 3. Have to tone that back a little.

I would dedicate the Necro bracer slot to a defensive item instead of Corpse Explosion. Since the Necromancer is devour-centric, I like the idea of devour granting DR for every corpse consumed, stacking up to X times - or something similar.

Alternatively, I have tossed around the idea of Krelm’s set being changed to grant DR & percent damage for every set item equipped; the flip side of LoN: say 5% damage and 5% DR for every set item. That would be a maximum of 60% damage and 60% DR, which I think is reasonable.

I don’t like how every build is reliant on Krysbin’s, but I suppose it’s a lot like Wizards being built around Fazula’s. I don’t play enough necro to comment further.

Good post.

3 Likes

Really great write-up. I love all of these changes.

Also, his version of Final Service isn’t OP at all. Every other class gets a benefit from their Cheat Death ability, Necro is the only one that gets a downside (losing all of your pets). Even with Fluff’s version, you only get the heal as a pet-using Necro, meaning many builds are only getting the 4 sec immunity.

Necro is a squishy class, 10% heal per pet, even for a full pet user, is not that impactful. Even if you heal for 100% of your HP, it’s the 4 sec immunity that’s really important to get out of the situation that procced your Cheat Death in the first place.

If you think that’s better than Crusader “When you receive fatal damage, you instead become immune to damage, gain 35% increased damage and gain 107,284 Life per Kill for 5 seconds.” that’s crazy. 35% increased damage for 5 sec is way better than essentially a non-legendary potion only if you’re playing a spec that uses pets.

2 Likes

I agree with your analysis that the Necros ability to generate corpses outside of Land of the Dead is poor, but I actually think the best solution is to either rework, completely remove or to replace LotD.

imho Land of the Dead is the most problematic skill in the whole game. It is not just used in basically every Necro build, but it also leads to some very boring/annoying gameplay.

Maybe the skill could a feature that some other skills like Spirit Walk, Smoke Screen or Serenity already have, which is that the skill will first start its cooldown after its effects have expired, but I am not sure if that would be enough to make it less prevalent for most Necro builds.

Preferably, LotD could (or even ‘should’ ?) be replaced by another ‘corpse-generating’ skill that has a very different mechanic.

In the Diablo 2 mod Median XL there is a Necromancer skill called ‘Sacrifice’, which summons about 15 or 20 ‘Sacrificial Lambs’ that immediately get killed and leave 15 or 20 corpses for you to utilize. Something like that could work in D3 as well with a 20 second cooldown or so.

Or a ‘Rain of Corpses’ skill that causes ~20 corpses to rain down from the sky that you can utilize with a 20 second cooldown might fit the Necro as well.

I don’t know if the devs will actually put in the work to do something about LotD, but if there is one skill in the game that should either be heavily reworked or replaced with something else, then imho it would be Land of the Dead, because of its negative implications for build diversity and the gameplay that this skill results in.

2 Likes

The consuming your pet thing has clearly got to go, but the heal, possibly to full health again, is still a little too much. Eh, maybe I’m just being picky.

Is removing or nerfing thorns an option at this point? What about nerfing the Bone Ringer? If that offhand didnt function and stack infinitely it would no longer be able to be as broken as it is now. You would be able to push thorns still but it would cap much earlier (120, 130 maybe).

Land of the Dead is in every build- Yep would be nice to have it as an option but not an auto include.

Necro is so squishy- It is very squish, but shouldnt caster type characters be squish?

6 Piece Trag’s- I agree it needs a unique Identity separate from Pestilence. Sets guide a character to a playstyle or identity and Trag doesnt have one right now.

Buff Pestilence slightly to beat out coldlancer

Pestilence needs a buff to keep Necro equal to other classes with push builds (assuming thorns is nerfed). LoN Lancer feels pretty good in 4 man because its single target is greater than Pestilence but solo pushing with Pestilence feels much better. I agree with the buff to the set just not the reasoning listed here.

Buff Corpse Explosion - Yes please love the look and feel of the spell

New Bracer- Yep New Items are good

Buff Inarius- I feel like Inarius is close to being a fun and great set, the bone storm looks cool and makes for Melee type Necro build.

Jesseth Set- Yep needs love

Final Service- 100% agree

Golem Skin- Agree

I want an actual pet set that revolves around utilizing all the minions and not just Singularity. Currently the top ‘minion’ build uses nothing but Singularity mages that doesn’t even feels like a pet but a spell. Revive, golem, non Singularity mages and command skeleton (unless you’re using jesseth set) aren’t even being used because they’re not viable. The pet set should allow the minion to be permanent so it allows the necromancer to cast other spells to support minions to do damage such as proc’ing krysbin, cursing enemies etc. I would also like to suggest that army of the dead could gain stacks some way like fan of knives to do big damage. The way it gains its stack could be based off of minion kill or damage.

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Maybe there could be an item that gives you an affix like:

  • While Land of the Dead is NOT active (or NOT on your skillbar), your damage is increased by xxx%, your damage taken is reduced by xx% and every second x corpses spawn around you (or something like that)

This effect would also work when you do not have LotD on your skillbar, so you don’t have to choose LotD for every build if the bonus from the item is reasonable.

2 Likes

The entire issue is not gear and skills, but how stale end game is.
Anyone can have fun making crazy builds on lower difficulty.

Competitive is a joke in this game, same as Diablo 2. The winners are simply people with the most time to dump into the game every day.

Nothing will solve these issues 100% for everyone

When a game becomes less to do with skill, and more to do with time spent, it may be time to walk away from “pushing”

The game is already over 7 years old and the vast, vast majority of the devs have moved on to other projects, so you can not expect the game to be changed significantly.

We can expect changes/tweaks to skills and items, some QoL changes, new season themes, balance changes and a few new legendary affixes and one new set for every class, but nothing that changes the game on a fundamental level.

I think your issue is a little beyond this forum thread. We’re just looking at ideas to improve the necro class and how it feels in diablo 3.

2 Likes

Love your thinking. Great ideas. One of the things that keeps me away from necro are the near mandatory long cooldown skills like LotD and Simulacrum. Also, as you touched on, the lack of corpses and corpse dependent skills that are basically DOA when there are no corpses. I’m reminded of this week’s CR - you basically stand around doing nothing if LotD is on CD and you have no corpses. Maybe corpse skills could be powered up if a corpse is available, but they would be slightly diminished if there was no corpse.

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OR keep the necro as it is and buff the barbarian for fook sake.

There is a recent and intriguing analysis of class balance for 2019-1 era in general discussion. It also includes a description of barbs versus necromancers vs. monk vs. etc… The data is interesting.

5 Likes

I also would love to play a lot more Necro, but the almost mandatory reliance on LotD and the playstyle that its mere existence leads to is a huge turn off for me. If you don’t use LotD in certain builds (e.g. Pestilence) and you encounter your first enemies because there are no corpses, you are DOA as you said, because you can’t buff yourself or freeze enemies.

And then there is the playstyle of doing nothing while LotD is on cooldown and then when LotD is off cooldown you just nuke everything, and and and…

…that all is why I say that LotD this the most problematic skill in the entire game.

I personally do not have a problem with LotD’s long cooldown (and long cooldowns in general), since it is not really the main problem with the skill, but rather with the playstyle it leads to.

Thanks

This is also a possible way to go, but it would be hard for it to make sense from a RPG or lore perspective, like how can you explode corpses if there are none around?

Another idea I had in regards to how the Necro can generate corpses is that he could have items and/or a passive skill that causes his skills (and maybe even the attacks of his minions) to shed body parts from enemies, which act exactly like normal corpses.

It would be like

  • Enemies have an xx% chance to drop a body part/corpse fragment when you (or your minions) hit them, that you utilize with your corpse skills.

His maybe even could be an inherent mechanic unique to the Necro, just like corpses are already unique to the class, so that he does not even require a passive skill or items.

If it has to be, it also can be balanced in a way like the Life from Death Passive (which spawns Health Globes when you consume a corpse), so that you can only have a certain amount of body parts/corpse fragments from this effect at the same time, etc…

Thoughts?

2 Likes

Hi Fluffy.

I’ve been lurking on other class forums ever since we released the Barb Buff Proposal, and I’m really excited to see this from you. I love the work you did here, and I think your suggestions are spot-on. I admit that I’m a total Necro noob, but many of the things you point out are what has turned me off from the class time and time again.

Thank you for your hard work and dedication. I’ll do whatever I can to support this going forward.

8 Likes

For Corpse generation? There is allready an Item in the game Moribund Gauntlets just change it. - Your Golem sheds 3-4 corpses every second. And the damage of your golem is increased by 20% for every exploded corpse in the last 3 seconds. Stacks up to 20 times.

2 Likes

I like this idea.
However, the question if this will be enough to take away the focus from LotD or if LotD will still be massively OP when compared to other builds that don’t use it or are not as synergystic.

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3 to 4 corpses per second is a drop in a lake compared to unlimited corpses for 10 seconds, even with the 120 second cooldown. Pestilence with Captain Crimson and Messerschmidt’s Reaver is capable of 100% uptime on LotD which means unlimited lances and life from Devour NumLock while freezing everything which keeps things from killing you and proccing Krysbin’s.

1 Like