Just wondering if one of these builds is clearly “better” than the other in light of the new changes to the Marauder set, and/or if anyone has a strong preference of one over the other. Currently running the MS build and enjoying it, looking for a new BR quiver before trying Cluster Arrow.
Both builds are very viable. The best version of each at the moment seems to be the generator-less variant using Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac. See DiEoxidE’s videos for more details on that build (he got rank 1 world with it).
Multishot requires more careful placement of the sentries but Cluster Arrow does work quite well and might be able to push a smidge higher in perfect GR scenarios after fishing a lot. I would estimate both are within ±1~2 GRs of each other.
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loving CA loaded for bear variant.
beams of rocks flying in from miles away is so satisfying.
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MS has more offensive upside if you’re willing to give up perma-vengeance since you can equip the Yang and put either DML or Bombadier in the cube while equipping the other.
You generally equip the Yang’s Recurve for Cluster Arrow too (for the 50% RCR). This serves also to add a massive toughness bonus via Captain Crimson’s 3-piece bonus.
Yes, the yang’s RCR results in a defensive bonus of approx 20% more dmg reduction when using the CC set. However, the Yang doesn’t help CA offensively compared to the Manticore (manticore gives 50% CR for CA + dmg bonus to CA). MS on the other hand, is massively buffed by the Yang.
You cube the Manticore and wear Yang’s + Rucksack. You miss out on Dawn but the trade-off is worth it. Also, 50% RCR = 2x toughness (it doesn’t have diminishing returns).
First, all sources of damage reduction results in diminishing returns.
If you’re doing nothing but standing in town taking stuff on and off you could easily draw a very incorrect conclusion about Yangs-impact on your toughness and mistake it for “2x more toughness”. That’s not accurate in combat at all.
Yang contributes to the total RCR, which is used for the damage reduction (CC set bonus) and that 50% has a big impact on RCR, but its also a diminishing impact.
Paragon: 10% RCR
CC Set: 20% RCR
Yang: 50% RCR
NOTE: Manticore 50% CA cost red. doesn’t count towards this since its not generic RCR
Total RCR= (1-paragon (10%)) x (1- cc set(20%)) x (1-yang(50%)) = 36% of cost or 64% RCR overall.
Without the yangs, the RCR is 28% and while 64% is more than twice 28% that doesn’t translate into 2x your toughness because its just 1 source of damage reduction. A character will still have armor, resistances, abilities like vengeance, items like wraps of clarity, elusive ring, unity ring. All of these will be separate sources, and combined together have diminishing returns on the damage.
Second, sentries will auto fire MS nearly twice as often as CA
Its easy to test this, run out somewhere and drop a sentry, time it for 30 seconds, and count how many times it casts an ability. Do it with CA and then switch to MS and you’ll notice a huge difference. Each of those MS casts are getting the damage increase from Yang and DML.
The big difference comes when your character starts shooting MS. In addition to the auto-shots, the sentries will fire when you fire and since you’re firing MS twice as fast, so will they. Even when CA does twice the overall damage of MS, your effective MS damage with the faster auto-fires, firing twice as fast, hitting baddies twice when below 60% health… you’re going to be doing way more damage with MS.
You have a misunderstanding of how RCR translates into toughness. It turns out that each additional RCR roll multiplies your toughness without diminishing returns.
Your application of the formula is correct, but you fail to translate the gain in RCR to a gain in toughness. With 64% RCR, you would take 1 - 64% = 36% of incoming damage, whereas with 28% RCR you’d take 72% damage. Since you take only half the damage in the former, this is a 100% toughness gain equivalent to a 50% multiplicative DR.
In general, instead of comparing damage reduced (DR) it may be better to look at damage taken (DT). The formula simply goes as:
- DT = 1 - DR
Plug in the formula for DR in terms of RCR above and simplifying gives:
- DT = 1 - (1 - (1-RCR_1) * … (1-RCR_n) ) = (1-RCR_1) * … (1-RCR_n)
where each RCR_k labels a RCR roll and we have n rolls total.
From here it is easy to see that, if we include an additional RCR roll RCR_{n+1}, the effective change in DT is:
- (1-RCR_1) * … (1-RCR_n) (1-RCR_{n+1}) / ( (1-RCR_1) * … (1-RCR_n) ) = (1-RCR_{n+1})
so that each RCR roll contributes multiplicatively to reduce your damage taken.
This is largely irrelevant as your own attack speed is so much higher than those of sentries that they contribute little to your total dmg anyway. Maybe with Tasker gloves this would be different, but that entails sacrificing a cube slot so is almost never done.
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With 28% RCR you get 28% damage reduction = 72 damage taken for every 100 points of damage dealt.
With 64% RCR you get 64% damage reduction = 36 damage taken for every 100 points of damage dealt.
Last I checked, 36 is 1/2 of 72, so 2x toughness because of 50% extra damage reduction.
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If that was your only source of damage reduction, you would be right.
But you also have damage reduction from armor, resistances, abilities, items, etc… and of course your vitality plays a big part in toughness too. Just because 1 single source of damage reduction is getting larger doesn’t mean that all other statistics used for determining toughness are getting larger.
That said, I will admit the impact of the yang on your defense is much larger than I originally thought but at the same time, if all you’re doing is standing in town, looking at your toughness score as you flip gear you’re deluding yourself into thinking its more impactful because you’re not using all your abilities and getting the procs from everything you have that would occur in combat.
With Multishot Yang’s is irrelevant.
With Cluster Arrow, the weapon slot becomes an actual decision depending on the rest of your build.
Yang’s defensive gains are very clear with Crimson. It is a true 50% DR gain, not influenced by the amount of RCR you are carrying — the other posters have demonstrated why.
For Cluster Arrow, the more interesting particulars are the offensive gains from each weapon option in every possible scenario:
- Yang’s vs Dawn vs Odyssey vs Echoing Fury
- Soul Shards
- Crimson vs Aughild vs None
- F&R/Squirts vs CoE/EW vs OrotZ/CoE/Squirts
Runes - Hellcat vs Frostburns vs Zoey’s
I have never seen a build with as much depth as M6 CA. There are some unexpectedly good outcomes to soak time in.
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He’s still right…
I think this is where you got mixed up. “Doubling your toughness” is not the same thing as “doubling all sources of damage reduction”. If you actually doubled every separate source of DR (armor, resists, elusive ring, wraps of clarity, dodge, whatever) you’d see a huge increase in your toughness, not a 2x increase.
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I was wrong about the DR effect of RCR with Captains.
I still think MS builds > CA builds