That’s my point how bout something just completely new.
Sure, but what should that new be.
That’s not my job! 
Ah ok thanks ! 
Yes, each of them should be viable, just as any combination of a 3 Attributes system.
Not really. ^^ Do you mean to tie effects to weapon types AND attributes ? And what is “cleave” in your concept (not a skill I guess) ?
Chance to cleave on hit… Guess I added a few xtra options to make choices more numbered (could’ve had it like extra attack but that is kinda too much like a critical in my book :P)
Those things are all hit effects, stun, knockback, blind, root, lifesteal, mana-return… Basically any thing that can happen on hit is a hit-effect
As for the “tied to weapon” think it’s already the case (somewhat) in D4, for example bludgeon weapons do a hit-effect called “Crushing Blow” (% max HP damage per hit), and Staves have a Socket-empowerment % for the gem you socket in it (Elemental damage per hit, separately calculated from the physical damage, i.e. ATK rate of weapon)
And frankly don’t think it’s a bad choice or design, on the contrary, quite fond of it (AS LONG AS one type of weapon can get more than only 1 hit-effect type, sort of like I listed above), and it also makes sense to somewhat “tie” them, you probably wouldn’t expect a wand to do a knockback or whatever lol
It’s that they haven’t figured out how the attribute systems work, so just gave a suggestion to have some of the impact (not all) be as empowers to hit effects by different types… BUT, again, would rather prefer/like for them to try again and attempt something completely new :), and not end up with the Str/Dex/Int sh*t again tbh
Be as it may, the bottomline is that SOME stats will get “tied” to attributes (which in return might get tied to another stat also) cause that’s how primary attributes work. They have to be both INDEPENDENT enough so that a character doesn’t lose too much in itemisation and just “stacks up” primary attributes, BUT, on the other hand have to be IMPACTFUL enough so that they as far as building a character play a noticeable role
Yes, but so it would be with Crushing Blow for all other classes except the Barbarian and the Paladin/Crusader/Knight (CB would work with spells as well, but it archetypically fits better with melee classes that deliver heavy hits on enemies) …
… or with Block Chance for everyone except the Paladin/Crusader, or with Dodge Chance for everyone except the “Agile Melee Class” (like Monk or Assassin)…
… or Attack Speed and Critical Hit Chance for everyone except the Archer Class and the “Agile Melee Class”.
etc.
So everyone has something that is unfair compared to other classes, not just the Sorc.
Indeed, it is too much.
It should be more around 15%, but it would have taken too much effort for me to calculate the exact numbers, and since it was just a concept, I left it there.
Potency of what? You mean the power of Buff Skills? And of Self Buffs, and Debuffs (on enemies)? Both for offensive Buffs and defensive Buffs?
I strongly assume that this effects self-buffs and debuffs on enemies, but does it also effect things like Shrines, Health Potions (if the regenerate health over time), CC Duration, etc
I do strongly dislike this one as an Attribute (or at least as a main attribute). I can’t really point it down, but it just does not feel right.
imo building a character around proc effects is too niche.
yeah, on that one we can definitely agree. I also would combine Resource Cost Reduction and Cooldown Reduction into a single Attribute.
I couldn’t stop myself from doing that, it just comes naturally for me. I don’t even do this to “demand” that these ideas get implemented into the game, but I just enjoy doing these things.
You are welcome.
Coming up with something new like what for example? Maybe you can give us a broad direction what you would like?
In both Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 the game can be completed on hardcore only using blue magic items, and nothing is crafted. In Diablo 2 Lord of Destruction blue magic items and yellow rare items have cube recipes that can re- roll them with all new affixes and sockets.
Right now I have a Diablo 3 hc clvl 35 barbarian that crushes only using blue and Diablo 2 hc clvl 65 barbarian only using blue that I’m attempting to 99ing with.
Hm, I would consider proc effects to be one of the more interesting ways to build a character.
Though a problem imo is that it is a bit of an all or nothing stat. Getting a little of it is unlikely to feel useful. Though I guess it is doable. And if the attribute offers other useful benefits to make it worth getting, it can certainly work.
I liked the ADA power splitting it up in debuff and buff durations.
Both seem useful buffs for many different builds. But certainly not equally useful for everyone. They should be able to stand on their own as separate stats.
I also think attributes need to give more than one effect per attribute, otherwise, they are pretty much just affixes.
Maybe something like this, if I should try to not have any direct dmg increases. And also avoid boring +life. Could add a third effect, but maybe not more than that.
Might :
- +debuff (on enemy) duration
- +physical resistance
Endurance :
- +buff duration
- +proc potency (not sure this bonus would work, not all procs might be something you can scale. Of course, that might not be a problem either, just potentially confusing)
Precision :
- +chance of proc effect
- +active dodge regeneration (can use the dodge more often)
Willpower :
- +energy regeneration (lower resource cost might be better than a regen though?),
- +CD reduction
- +non-physical resistance
Well why not ? I do like getting free skills with items.
Now I get your idea, it’s interesting. Weapon types having some specific effect feels logical though. And if they get several effects there might be some synergy. Skills and Talents can work with Attributes too so that’s good.
Only problem I see : you have to know which items do what before starting to invest any point in Attributes.
There is also an example of a mace with this affix… doesn’t feel like Blizzard is going in that direction.
Yes, which means only Ranger would be efficient with a Crit build, only Barbarian with Crushing blow… doesn’t really feels right to me (unlike Pierce resist or Pierce armor that really follow the functioning of these classes).
Potency of all effects, Buffs, Debuffs, DoT, Healing…
Exactly ! Just as Willpower also decreases the CD of potions.
This is exactly what Ancestral power does, and Blizzard seem(ed?) to design the game accordingly. There are many affixes and talents that could work with this.
And in my idea this would also increase Chances to Crit or Crush. It’s a bit similar to those Crit attributes you find in many games (WoW and Wolcen for example).
It can work with formulas based on level, but it’s a bit tricky yes.
It felt a bit confusing to me, so I prefered to make a Attribute that increases the power of the effects. But separating them would be perfectly valid of course.
As for a secondary effect, I don’t think it’s necessary in this case since these Attributes improve both offense and defense. It’s also different from affixes in the sense that they buff affixes, and many of them (not just like a “increase the effect of the gem in this item” ).
My point is that Crafting and Upgrading is fun.
Indeed, it is very, very interesting.
“specific” might be a better word to use here than “niche”, so let me rephrase what I said:
“Making an Attribute around proc effects is way to specific”
You need to have proc effects in the first place to make this useful, that is probably why it doesn’t feel right for me.
Yes, you are basically using other words to describe what think as well.
No, since Critical Hit Damage would not exist, just like Crushing Blow Damage.
There might be some very few Legendaries that have Critical Hit Damage, but it would not be a commonly available Affix like in D3.
And items which proc something on Crit would also be optional.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
Although I would let Potion Cooldown be a separate thing (and I would prefer it if Potions had 3 Charges instead of a Cooldown and each use restores 20% max Health immediately, and 40% over 4 seconds, so an additional 10% every second for 4 seconds).
I have nothing against the affix itself, I just don’t like the idea that it becomes a main attribute. Especially when you also consider that other affixes are gated behind a certain amount of ADA Power.
Ah, yeah, I agree (as you also said afterward). If it was part of an attribute system, the attribute would need to offer more than just proc chance, otherwise it is too specific.
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Keep in mind my point wasn’t to completely define the attributes and what they’d do. Ofcourse they’d need to affect the classes in more ways than just hit-effects to be considered worthy of a fundamental system in character build role/s. Just wanted to make a point that pairing skills with attributes might be a problem
Also mentioned this “simple” formula for 4 potential damage sources (potentially all independent one of another):
- Physical = ATK - DEF (Target)
- Elemental = Elemental * (1 + %amplify)/(1+ %resist (target))
- HitEffect = HitEffect * (1 + Attr/100)/(1 + Attr(Target)/100)
- And the 4th damage source being the Skill as a separate damage source
Now the first thing people are gonna say is Hit-effects or Elemental damage wouldn’t matter… Well yes and no, that depends on the challenge design tbh…
Say there are some knights (near high-lvl/tier monsters) that are “dressed up” in armor head to toe and have high/abnormal anti-physical damage reduction. Let’s say that your damage is 5000 per hit, but that mob has 5500 DEF (i.e. physical armor), and you’ll deal the minimal (let’s say some very rudimentary/basic damage of your character by simple Fibonacci progression that gets up every 5 or so character levels, thus resulting in dealing something like 34 or 21)
So, what you’ll end up with is (most likely one of these choices) to use
- A - debuffs via either curses (empowered by Int) or things like ArmorReduction (empowered by Str)
- B - avoid physical damage as a source almost completely and rely on an elemental-damage-per-hit source (though this may be risky cause some elites/majors might have some resistance/s in addition)
- C - use skills only to soften up early but run into mana/resource retention problems later on
- D - completely rely on hit-effects like crit or crushing blow
The choice is yours, but what that “setup” does is makes possible for many routes to work later on and all options be still viable
You might have:
A cleave/pierce weapon like Axe or Polearm/whatever:
- 10% chance to reduce target DEF for 5% for 5 seconds (let’s say every 50 or so STR adds another 5% to that amount above, so a 300 STR character affix would be 35%)
OR a pierce/bleed weapon like sword or dagger, for ex:
- 15% chance to inflict bleed for 20/sec damage suffer for 5 seconds. Bleeding amount is trippled while target is in moving motion (well, could make it so that 20 damage/sec from bleed gets +5 for each 50 Dex, so a high Dex character would end up dealing a 50/sec bleed instead of 20)
And my personal/favourite suggestion would be - treat critical as temporary increase of power (be it one hit or for a certain duration) so you can end up with things ilke:
“Magic” sword:
- 15% chance to buff up 500 extra damage per hit for 5 seconds (every 50 int increases that duration for 1 extra sec, every 50 dex gives another 100 xtra damage bonus)
ALL those are viable, and are (IMO properly) somewhere around 2.5x stronger on a “focused attribute” character as opposed to a balanced one and about 4x stronger than a character that uses those hit effects but don’t use the accurate attribute to have them empowered
BE AS IT MAY though, SOME of those things (all viable options) will get empowered by one or another affix when the right attribute gets specced into…
Now for the 2nd part of discussion:
“too niche to rely on hit effects”
That’s probably the lesser of 2 evils
Let’s face it, a gameplay where the majority (or vast majority even) damage dealt comes from specific high-leveled skills risk to either be broken or too hard to rely upon
THAT is ofc. based upon the “resource management” system, if the resource/mana is easy to get by, then the vast majority of damage will be dealt via skills (often even from “safe” distance which kinda reduces the challenge tbh).
On the other hand if the “resource management” is too hard to get by people might get bored by “hit and run” one mob at a time (like in a horror game of some sorts :P). BUT, be as it may,
as long as the resource-management system doesn’t outperform all other potential types of damage dealing sources (hits, elemental hits, hit-effects) then we’re in a good spot
On the side of immersion, MIGHT feel a bit “radical” as well, but let’s compare it a bit with other types of genres for a bit to make my point
After seeing a “Street fighter 4” spam of Spells and effects in D3, and “Mortal Kombat 4” amount in D2, perhaps might be the right decision to go more of a “Tekken” approach, i.e. where skills/spells aren’t as easy to spam and/or as safe to cast tbh
And AS LONG AS there are nice/niche synergies between hit-effects an skills (or could at least spec into), OR even have consumables that make it so (for ex. a frost shard that vapors in air and makes all physical projectiles deal cold damage in addition), then that problem should be (probably) rightfully resolved
And ofc, you might end up sacrificing other stats of your character for higher mana/resource regen rates to gain more “pure spellcaster” feel, BUT, as long as there aren’t “instant potions” to buy the gameplay should still “feel” right for all approaches (more or less) tbh. In addition, you’d still end up investing/sacrificing potentially a lot of other things (lack of survival even) to make it work…
SO, hit-effect empowering does feel like a good “substitution” to a “resource/mana generation” system (at least to me) tbh overall… And besides, what other ways to better do it than have it be affected by character’s primary attributes (in addition to affecting the whatever primary stat of a character)
It shouldn’t be too easy (or maybe even possible) to have so much resource / resource cost reduction that you could just spam resource-intense skills without interruption.
Same thing with cooldowns.
If RCR or CDR get out of hand, there could be diminishing returns, for example starting at 50% with a 10% reduction in efficiency, then 15% at 60% and 20% at 65% or something like that.
Blizzard said that they didn’t like to do that in the past, but the started doing things like that in other of their games since a while.
In general I personally also dislike things like ‘Fury on Hit’ or AP on Crit’ for the reason that they make it too easy to keep up the resource so easy.
For certain Buff Skills like Wrath of the Berserker, Ignore Pain (or whatever the D4 equivalent to these skills could be), etc, there is the feature that these skills only start their Cooldown until after their effects have expired.
I don’t really see procs and resource management as a remotely related issue.
I don’t even really have an issue with an affix that increases the chance that effects trigger or that increases the power procs, I just don’t think such an affix fits on an Attribute System. On the Passive Skills and on Items, sure, since there it is more optional, but not on the Attributes.
And since there are various ways to make resource management reasonable, I would not really say this is an issue.
Ok then, this may be a bit of derail but since that’s been done already here’s the point. So far we’ve seen like 3-4 types of resource management systems
- Potions (pros = attached to econ, cons = super effective and spammable)
- Generators (pros = simple and intuitive, cons = more of a playstyle than resource)
- Resource swap/transition (pros = simple, cons = forces a pattern of playing, just like 2 but this one even more so)
- Resource return (pros = delays and reduces the need for other resource generation sources, cons = affects resource costs depending on how much/often)
So, that being said I personally think one of the better ways to deal with it is the “approach” I mentioned above
5 - Potions of resource return (i.e. consumable temporary generators)
- Pros, doesn’t provide instant value, may or may not affect eco, may reduce the frequency of affixes that return, unlike generators doesn’t completely define playstyle
- Cons … ? may affect inventory in a non-predictable manner
? (but that’s either way the same con potions potentially had tbh)
You might be right that skills vs effects is affected by these and not necessarily to attributes, not directly at least, BUT, if you consider effects as a potential system (secondary) that can deal “free of resource” damage, then they all kinda “blend off” into a greater/more-complete system though
I mean, if you don’t always need a resource to cast a skill then that’s basically independent source of damage from the resource BUT it’s still a part of the “damage pie” i.e. damage source of the character so in THAT sort of manner they’re interconnected together, and tbh think it would be the “wiser” choice to accept them being a part of one thing instead of separate things just cause one “wastes” mana/resource and the other does not 
But Generaors/Primary Skills would have a different Proc Coefficient than Resource Spending Attacks, which means that Resource Spending Attacks would proc these Effects more often and therefore even Proc Builds would be influenced by Resource Costs (though only indirectly, but it still would have a strong impact on them).
Could have a separate system for “empowering” these and keep “hit effects” for primary attacks only… Skills can be empowered or given extra effects by some of the following
Talents on class
Runes (or whatever skill-related system they think of), even
Affixes (but these being not considered primary)
And to be frank when think a bit more about it that’s how probably should be
So you want that Proc Effects (like Chain Lightning/Meteor/etc on Attack, or Buffs like War Cry/Ignore Pain on Attack) only trigger from Primary Skills/Generators?
That would feel weird to me.
And what about on Kill procs or effects that proc based on the amount of resource spend, etc?
What kind of “extra effects” are you talking about? Other procs or things that changes to how the skill works?
A build that revolves around procs (and I don’t mean Crushing Blow or Critical Hit Chance, but Spell and Buff Procs) is certainly possible, but also unusual. I always considered Spell Procs to be more something like a Secondary or even Tertiary source of damage…
… which is why I would rather put a proc-related affix on the Passive Skill System where it is more of an optional choice, rather than making it a (core) attribute.
In order to show you the gain/importance of keeping proc-chances separate and much less often for skills but still being viable as talents/runes/affixes will post a few items for you
Jester’s Revenge (small Axe)
- ATK: 3500 (relatively low primary ATK for high levels)
- 15% to cleave 45% of damage (primary hit effect, melee only)
- 15% for cleaved monsters to bleed for 8 sec
** Blood from bleeding opponents stays on the floor for up to 8 seconds which can be flamed (legendary affix)
So, sure, you could use cleave skill but chances are they won’t deal 45% of 3500 damage (unless highly invested). On the other hand you could have a separate affix to cause not only cleave but direct bleed procs via some other skills… Be as it may the “mutual benefit” for all of the playstyles/effects is that blood stays on the ground and is flamable to wreak extra havoc in fights despite your “tiny axe” having about half of “late game item” intended attack rate
Snakeskin (Bow)
- ATK: 2900 (relatively low primary ATK for high levels)
- 35% to inflict 50% poison damage over 5 sec (primary hit effect, melee only)
- 15% for DoT effects to become 300% stronger for 2 sec
** Targets that die from poison damage spawn 3 snakes that deal 25% poison damage for 10 sec
This should also be (somewhat) intuitive, again, relatively low primary attack rate, but has a good primary proc rate, the secondary rate is much lower but still affects the attacks quite well (unless you straight up have a really strong DoT fire or poison skill to cast), and regardless whether your DoT comes from the primary attacks or a skill, (you’ll benefit more and more from it)
NOW, maybe you might have another item that has a bonus for summons to deal extra DoT damage, OR maybe even a certain skill to do something else from a DoT (like explode on death or sth), but the bonus is still good enough from primary attacks (procs more often) than the other affix
At the end of days some of those “mutual benefited effects” to be triggered by physical damage (as opposed to DoT), regardless, just a food for thought to think about it
You mean a 15% CHANCE, I assume.
And what exactly does this do?
° Does this mean that your Character uses the Cleave Skill?
° Does it mean that the Cleave Skill triggers without your character making the movement animation, and that only a 180° visual appears in front of you which damages all enemies?
° Does it mean that all enemies that are nearby in front of you take 45% Damage?
And the 45% Damage is based on what?
° Your Weapon?
° Or the attack that proced the cleave?
° Or the hit on an enemy that proced the cleave?
But beyond that, I still don’t understand WHY procs should only be limited to Primary Skills and why this should be important.
The item you illustrates also could work perfectly with a Resource Spending Attack and I see no reason why it shouldn’t.
You attack one target, Cleave happens AoE (think Sven, DotA, not that hard to imagine lol)
Neither really, I mean 45% of damage done but then “secondary” targets may have a different DEF rating than the mob you’re attacking. Some games solve this problem by making cleave be a non-reduced by armor damage (i.e. chaos damage, but then this may look super weird super quick vs stronger DEF opponents), but there are even different “fixes” for this kinds of problems… For ex, let’s say your STR vs target’s STR might play a role in this
Imagine having a polearm and you use stab skill that has some mid-long range or even throw spear or something, should that also proc cleave ? :P, it’s not just intuitive but also more balanced this way
On the other hand could have a special/separate affix (either on the class that uses the skill or a rune alternation) that would affect the “impaled” targets to either suffer DoT or bleed or get debuffed, e.t.c…