Funny because Blizzard just grew revenues by 7%.
The only way to really make a static world interesting for revisiting is by adding PvP in it.
I personally despise static content in aRPGs. I’ve literally went 3 times through the PoE campaign before telling myself “Enough of this crap”. With D3 bounties it’s the same for me - absolutely tedious and annoying content to do. And it seems I am not the only one:
I really hope we’ll have to do the leveling/tutorial in D4 once or be able to opt-out of it through P2W. I want straight end game action in randomized content.
However, what can make me play the static world is a proper PvP mode. Let me search or camp waiting for lost adventurers to give them higher purpose by fueling my food supplies and gaining some new possessions. The world map just got way more interesting, feeling way more alive when real danger could be anywhere.
So, yeah, a static world map just cries for a PvP mode. If no such thing comes in D4, please let me opt-out of the static content. I can’t bear to do it multiple times. I play Diablo games for the randomness/procedural content. That’s what makes it exciting for me.
I highly disagree about PvP being the only way. And I am really not sure what you mean about PoE, since much of it is randomly generated, not unlike Diablo 2. Are you saying you just want to do rift after rift?
Personally I have beaten Diablo 2 countless times, because it melds a great story with static areas and lots of randomly generated areas/enemies, etc. Not to mention that each time you play you feel like you are working toward a build you have in mind. Plus D2 has little talking if you don’t want it. It doesn’t feel like a highly scripted/slow paced RPG that would be a chore to play through several times. Diablo 3 on the other hand has more talking (and bad talking at that), where bosses stop you and sit you down for a few minutes to explain how they are going to destroy you. In addition it also has no choice in how you progress your build, since the skill system is the same for a class each time you play.
Personally I want to play the D4 campaign several times, but they need to make sure it feels fresh to some degree each time. Random dungeons, dynamic and interesting overworld, loot, choice driven progression, all lead to a campaign I could play over and over. Not to say there shouldn’t be end-game elements too.
Regardless, my whole point was to make the overworld feel interesting and somewhat changing as you play, be it cosmetic and/or gameplay. It adds to the fresh feeling and keeps it interesting.
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Yep, most of the time. Endless Rifts procedurally generated by all assets in the game.
Wow, well to each their own! I find rifting incredibly mind-numbing, but I am sure they will have something similar for people who enjoy that.
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Static world is the better choice for tutorial, but other than that and PvP mode, it should not be used for some high rewarding un-optable time consuming mechanics (like bounties with great rewards for example) simply because it’s not procedural and thus automatically losing much charm.
Procedural content is one of aRPG fundamentals for me, be it regarding maps or items (or in case of Rogue likes everything including skills). If we compare the play time of two 2k hour players who end up with absolutely the same build what’s the unique about them was the journey or in which order they acquired what they have (since it’s random). Wyatt acknowledges the power behind this in a recent interview.
If you remove the random factor you just have your regular RPG where you have static maps and enemies drop predetermined stuff.
It’s okay to have static overworld and/or dungeons, but the player should be able to skip these with doing the procedural ones without losing any efficiency. Procedural content would always be more attractive for gameplay in aRPGs.
Well this kinda ended up in an endgame feature discussion kind of thing
I’d guess there can be “a bit of everything” but each has to be kinda well thought out and well-planned type of activity
My answer to “random generated content” is - Survival runs, Tournament modes, stuff like that… The outside world can be as static as it pleases as long as “bits of small differences appear” here and there as you progress (knights getting secondary armor, some small creatures getting leap, worms able to not only “teleport” under ground but also spew stuff spawn for a bit, flyers able to bombard or even be mounted)
But most of that stuff that’s “extreme randomness” should be mostly “underground” i.e. in a dungeon or event/activity (not everywhere but at times)
As mentioned before there are 2 types of “lategame activity” i.e. most of those can be summarized in 2 categories:
- Achievements
- Farming
Personally prefer the former and hate games that are designed around farming and low drops and all that but it’s kinda reasonable to assume that people will do “runs” often at times, and that’s perhaps where PvP zones can be placed relatively nearby so those that “repeat the same thing” can end up brawling to get a bit extra or risk a portion of that “surplus” of stuff gained 
As for the “random vs no random” I’d say I prefer the middle-ground approach, i.e. things be mostly not randomized, sort of few/several rooms moved, a few tunels closed or opened up randomly, perhaps rotated part at times, but the important thing is to have “skip prevention” mechanisms I’d say, stuff that come out of “nowhere” or doors that require a key/lever relatively well-guarded to prevent “cheese”
Also, having different mobs but not some “random crap” all the time should do the trick (regardless of map layout consistency 
), and to be fair don’t think that the map layout plays a huge role (unless a good portion of it is based on environment hazardity) but rather mutations/rotations/swaps/anomalies of mobs on the way
Once you may get a “heavily ground” concentrated content with ballistas, frontal shield bearers, archers, creatures that jump, another time you may get flyers and summoners and mostly “swarmlings” but not as much ballistic stuff to “conquer” or outsmart positionally… Third time you might get sort of “normal” content but all mobs have some sort of extra armor that has to be broken first before attacking their HP, those sorts of things (and depending on the “mob combinations” you get your loot would differ, or at least the rarest type or event-completion semi-guaranteed would differ completely)
Those kinds of things, the “underground” should probably have most of those mutations/anomalies/events, but the “overworld” should differ slightly in mob content and kinda rotating a bit
My problem with this is limited/experience-based thinking… I could imagine something like “random spawn order” or “random spawn location” on events/fights/areas would be almost enough to achieve combat diversity and truelly make the game “muscle memory proof” I’d say 
Static in regards to the shape, size, and orientation of the land masses, buildings, waypoints, and such. Enemies can be changed up, so the first pack of cannibals you run into in the Dry Steepes is a three pack of swarmers. Next time it’s a brute, a swarmwer, and one of those sword guys, next time it’s a champion pack. That’s fine. Secret locations could pop up in previously closed off areas or dead ends. Random weather, local events, vendors items, all fine. We don’t need map randomness.
It would be better off in a specific mode or selectively in dungeons where possible. So like the barracks in D3, it’s not always the same but it still same.
Yeah, PoE is the opposite of static. Randomly generated, a ton of random events (the masters and all that) from lvl 1.
Blizzard still has a lot to learn here.
That is map randomness though.
Grim Dawn does a lot of map randomness in a semi-static map outline as well. Randomly closing or opening pathways, secret rooms etc.
I posted an idea a while back for a different sort of direction for Diablo… keep all the ARPG aspects but introduce some strategy/townbuilding and MOBA style elements.
The idea is basically you come across a town or encampment struggling to fend off the hordes of demons and undead. The town doesn’t really fall… doesn’t necessarily need liberated in the first place. Basically a player can complete side quests which will “assist” the settlement in some way. Doing so while allow some sort of benefit for the player… like new mercenary type available, can repair ethreal items, buying rare items which are all guaranteed a specific affix (like if it was an eskimo tribe, all the rare items sold buy merchants in that town would have cannot be frozen affix). If the town is not assisted enough you lose access to those features.
I imagine these towns having their own sort of resource needs where the weapons and armor you sell (to the town defenders) are effected by a supply and demand system. They would value certain affixes and weapons differently ( an amazon tribe would like bows more).
I always liked the act 5 of diablo 2 because of the barbarianNPCs fighting along side you. I’d like to see that incorporated more so that assisting certain story related towns would actually lend you some NPC helpers that would physically help you along the story mission. Depending on the assistance you lend, you get more or less help in completing the story. Did you capture the catapults? You don’t get gold anymore, but there will be extra NPC fighters along your quest. It makes the “side missions” more interesting but its also an in-game difficulty slider.
It kinda plays in with my endgame idea too which is just basically rifts to hell that even after defeating “the evil” keep spawning (to explain the respawning mechanics and such) but you can close these portals for a temporary amount of time which would slow the amount of “reputation damage” to whatever town.
So it would be like Grim Dawns reputation/nemesis system but it decays with time, merged with a small amount of RTS-tyle base building (via side quests eg. capture the cannons, rescue someone, call for help, light the towers etc.), more emphasis on D2 act 5 barbarian NPCs, with a star traders economy.
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Are you sure, you arent pulled into their marketing? They always promise “living and breathing” games. Marketing terms sounds more much fancier than they actually are.
Monsters change depending on weather or time, sounds damn fun though. Damn, Ubisoft has them, right. This is Ubisoft’s thread, like I said earilier. Valhalla had some monsters, you could do only during night if I remember right.
Blizzard’s design style is way different than Ubisofts. Even their games are totally different. Diablo should be more “focus/goal” driven than ambient. Thats why I suggested Racing-design stuff to them.
As far as I’m aware of, they never promised a living breathing world in a Diablo game, nor had they stated that they intended to build the world based on the fact that it’s a living breathing one. So I’m not sure why you think this thread doesn’t equal a Diablo thread, when it’s a thread literally talking about Diablo 4 functions that could be in the game based on what the developers had either told us and/or already confirmed.
Also, plenty of games had night/day cycles and unique events and monsters based on said cycles, so I’m not sure why you keep saying that this is a ubisoft thing, especially when it’s not a thing solely unique to ubisoft.
Now if you don’t want said features, worry not, I’m sure there will be plenty of dungeons you can farm like rifts, however racing-design things are certainly things that I wouldn’t care for in Diablo. And thus far, it seems that the developers don’t really care as much for them either thankfully.
On another matter:
If I remember correctly, there’s a knocked down affix effect on items. So assuming said effect can work on players as well, then ice patches, like the ones you spoke of, can definitely work.
Thats pretty interesting, Devs wont like racign-like-design, when Diablo is almost like Formula. Towns are like pit-stop, sell your stuff, make changes to your build, and then you hit the road and rush into zones, then you cruise all over the zones and find an exit. Now they want to turn this into amazon forest, where you can watch parrots, monkeys and different kind of flowers, and sunsets.
Yep, looking at the gameplay videos show that you’re not just rushing through zones. So I’m looking forward to more info regarding what we can do in the world. And if threads like theses can give some ideas or inspirations, then that’ll be even better.
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They did say this:
For the first time, Sanctuary truly gets to be its own character. Throughout the Diablo games, we’ve interacted with these incredible characters; but for the first time, the world itself gets to be its own character;
- Harrison Pink, World and Lore, 2019
I will check out “every nook and cranny.”
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The difference is people want the while map to be randomized. 99.9% is still static. Where there was once a solid cliff base now contains a cave. That shack in the outskirts of town now has an open door.
That is fine. The old school and PoE randomization of map 1 having 3 exit points, a river with one crossing and 2 bandit camps always in different locations is not a good idea for a persistent world.
I don’t have the correct term but the latter I call map randomness, the first example is what I want and think will be in the game. Are we sure about the randomness in GD? It seems like every time I play it the same secret areas are always there. I don’t recall ever finding anything new or in a different location.
If we put a scale from say 0 (100% static) to 100 (100% randomized) I’d say it’s good to have all types of content in aRPGs from that scale - 0, 25, 50, 75, 100. When there is choice people can focus on what they find fun.
Grim Dawn is static, the only difference is where blockades appear and don’t appear, and I believe occasionally certain exits/entrances, or perhaps it was only random which one had the quest down it.
Regardless, it is basically entirely static in the layout. It would be like taking a maze for a mouse and modifying it by removing certain walls and adding different walls in other areas.
if the maze was “efficient” enough even small adjustments can result in vastly different experience/s, so “maze depth” and density is a greater factor than you think
Regardless, point being, not all “change” has to be in layout, can differ mobs in their spawn type, spawning locations, spawning order, and lastly but not least even behaviour (less aggressive, more aggressive, less tactical, more tactical, e.t.c.)
Take a game like Doom-Eternal for example which is just “notorious” on spawn-killing, even just one slight adjustment of randomised demon location spawn will make HUGE difference/s (yet alone talk about spawning order or behaviour)
Basically ANY game can feel vastly different just by changing those things
The bigger issue with repetition IMO is probably in the fact that people just skip content… BUT, don’t see how “randomized layout” solves that problem, the better solution to that is game-controlled progress (doors that require keys, keys that require certain stuff be destroyed, doors that can be destroyed but take awhile, “repairables”, e.t.c.), and frankly think that the better way to deal with that kind of problem is actually having like ~75% of layout not randomized
I was not criticising it, just making a comparison that I think best explains it. Grim Dawn is one of the better games in the genre in my opinion, and I like having a more handcrafted overworld, though I think there should still be fully random dungeons (and there will be seemingly in D4) and the overworld should be even more dynamic. I think with randomly placed enemies and affixes and such, along with weather, day night, random events, and hopefully environmental affects, then D4 can have a truly amazing world that is fun to explore and to run around in even after the first time.
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