Is skill trees okay for D4?

[Oblivion-1520]

Who’s to say how Diablo 4 will operate. Personally I don’t believe it would be any more similar to Diablo 3 than Diablo 3 was to Diablo 2.

[Shurgosa-1196]

@Oblivion-1520

Who’s to say how Diablo 4 will operate. Personally I don’t believe it would be any more similar to Diablo 3 than Diablo 3 was to Diablo 2.

who’s to say, you inquire?

Well the announcement of an entire new game that is nothing but a further dumbed down rehash of D3 for kiddies to click on while they use the toilet sure speaks volumes…

If you think they are shaping D4 to the whims of 50 nerds arguing on the Diablo 3 GD forum every day for the past 6 years, prepare to be dissappointed…

When they say “they are listening to fans” its more likely that they are studying financial trends. IE more candy and wings and pets = more money.

Nobody at Blizzard has even dared utter the words “Diablo 4” yet, So any expectation its going to be amazingly way more robust or more engaging or deep is pretty far fetched at this point…

I certainly do not expect them to impress anyone who wants a deeper experience…

If that was at all likely, D3 character building and item finding would not be the little pair of childish jokes that it currently is.

[Oblivion-1520]

If Diablo 4 is like that, then all I can say is “rip” on that. Not much else to be done at that point except moving on.

[shab6969-6799]

braindead post… booooo!

[Inquisition-11590]

@clueso-2790

@Inquisition-11590

It is an environment where respeccing is perhaps possible, but the resources required mean that rerolling might sometimes be necessary. Eg:

• D2 where you have used all your “quest” respecs
• PoE where you don’t have the Orbs of Regret to cover all the changes you want to make
• etc.

So you are not talking about a situation where you want to correct a few mistakes

No, I am not.

@clueso-2790

, but rather about a situation where respecing is necessary to progress (like upgrading from a low level build in D2 that focused on Fire Bolt to one that uses Fireball + Meteor)? Is that what you are referring to?

I am referring to any situation where you want to change your build significantly or fundamentally. For example - base it on a different skill. This might be because, as in your example, you want to change from a “levelling” build to your final form. But you might also decide that the skill(s) you invested in simply aren’t working like you wanted. Or you might find a powerful item suitable for another build, and want to change to that build to use it.

@clueso-2790

@Inquisition-11590

Actually, it isn’t, despite your efforts to make it appear so with your use of language (arbitrarily framing one case as a “punishment” and the other as merely an “incentive” towards a “reward”).

But actually it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Reinforcement_versus_punishment

Uh oh, here come the dictionaries.

Here, you can frame both situations as either a punishment or a reward.

You are being “punished” for having the wrong build by needing to reroll to get the build you want.
You are being “punished” for not being a seasonal character by needing to reroll in seasons to get the stash tab you want.

You are being “rewarded” for rerolling in seasons by the chance at getting a stash tab.
You are being “rewarded” for rerolling by the opportunity to change your build from the ground up.

[Inquisition-11590]

@Rowend-1924

2. You two seem to be mashing together the two concepts : releveling and new seasons…but are conveniently leaving out other factors in understanding why someone would want to do one thing but not the other even if they’re conceptually the same. The biggest reason I feel is time. Releveling in a short period of time is different from leveling a new character months(to years) later. It gives you time to miss it/gather nostalgia. It gave devs time to add new additions to their game(whether it be content, balance changes, new gear) and as I said before there’s social aspects(your friends are going to be suddenly down with the new season as well).

Because the other factors are not relevant to the current discussion. I am talking about the (hypothetical) situation where you are forced to reroll to change builds, against your wishes. I am equating it (conceptually) to the (current) situation where you are forced to reroll to have a shot at an extra stash tab, against your wishes. I am pointing out that it is logically inconsistent to be in favour of forced rerolls just to to obtain a stash tab, and against forced rerolls just to change your build.

Your other factors all involve a willingness to reroll.
If you miss / are nostalgic for levelling, you are doing it because you want to reroll.
If you want to experience new content added to the levelling process, you are doing it because you want to reroll.
If you want to have a race with your friends, or otherwise play in an environment where you are all starting from the same base, you are doing it because you want to reroll.
All of the above, and other situations where you are choosing to reroll to experience (X), are not relevant to my argument.

[UngivenFame-1419]

@Inquisition-11590

I am referring to any situation where you want to change your build significantly or fundamentally. For example - base it on a different skill. This might be because, as in your example, you want to change from a “levelling” build to your final form. But you might also decide that the skill(s) you invested in simply aren’t working like you wanted. Or you might find a powerful item suitable for another build, and want to change to that build to use it.

From my point of view, 2 out of three of those are unacceptable. This is one issue I have with Grim Dawn is its so much more efficient to level with something like devouring swarm even if your planning on a savagery build because of how cheaply you can totally unlearn a skill or two even after having completely maxed them. There are things you could do like locking skills level 2 behind player level 4 to somewhat mitigate that situation but you also have to lock in a skills development after a certain point. I am completely against a game where it is most efficient to have a leveling build regardless of your endgame goal. I am also against the idea that finding a powerful item suitable for another build that you want to use, you should just be able to unlearn everything respec and make your build suit it. Those two things together I think are entirely unsuitable and inconducive to the longer term entertainment of a game like this type. Its an RPG, its not call of duty where you just decide to be a sniper instead of a machine gunner the next match, it doesn’t require the same sort of skills of a shooter game, its about making different characters and enduring the journey for late blooming builds or to enjoy that nice item you found is what its about.

Now the second option is something that you want to avoid or mitigate… It is disheartening to realize what you did sucked. Sometimes, like D2, there is really no indications that your build is going to hit a brick wall. Ideally you would avoid situations like that (not going to derail the conversation by naming those). Players should be able to learn and experiment. But to allow infinitely changing builds based on “oh I found this item let me respec” or “oh I just want to level with this easy build then respec to meta endgame build later” is fundmentally against the heart and soul of the genre and deterimental to the long term sustainability of the game.

[clueso-2790]

@Inquisition-11590

I am referring to any situation where you want to change your build significantly or fundamentally. For example - base it on a different skill. This might be because, as in your example, you want to change from a “levelling” build to your final form. But you might also decide that the skill(s) you invested in simply aren’t working like you wanted. Or you might find a powerful item suitable for another build, and want to change to that build to use it.

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with players wanting to do that, but they have to work for that.

@Inquisition-11590

Uh oh, here come the dictionaries.

Here, you can frame both situations as either a punishment or a reward.

You are being “punished” for having the wrong build by needing to reroll to get the build you want.

You are being “punished” for not being a seasonal character by needing to reroll in seasons to get the stash tab you want.

You are being “rewarded” for rerolling in seasons by the chance at getting a stash tab.

You are being “rewarded” for rerolling by the opportunity to change your build from the ground up.

(Behavioral) psychologists will disagree with you on the premise that there is no difference between these two things.

Let’s use another analogy. Let’s say there is a guy who has an amazing idea to create something and he needs money for that. Now, these two things can happen:

1. He comes up to you, explains his idea to you, asks you for money and explains to you why it is a great idea for you to give him your money. You get exited and give him the money.
2. He comes towards you with a gun and tells you that he will hurt and/or kill you if you do not give him your money. Then you give him your money.

The results are the same. You give him your money.

Now, according to you, the whole thing could be framed differently.

Instead of being rewarded with potential profit in the future or the feeling of having done something good, you are now being punished for loosing out on the profit or the good feeling if you don’t give him the money.

And instead of being punished with death or pain, you are rewarded with life and physical integrity if you give him your money.

You are basically saying that these two things are the same because the results are the same, but I beg to differ with that.

[clueso-2790]

@ShadowAegis-1537

Whether new to the game, the class, or even the build that you want to play the question becomes did you learn something from the time spent. If the answer is yes then it isn’t time wasted. Otherwise you would have to say what a lot of people say about those that play video games. They are just wasting time. They don’t get anything from it.

I learn from my mistakes and move on. If the design of the game says that I must re-roll then so be it I re-roll.

Let me come up with an analogy.

Let’s say there is a small company where you have been an apprentice to get your job training and the company seemed legit, but now it turned out that the company was lacking licences and was doing shady stuff behind their backs and that when the police investigated that all and bought it to the daylight, it resulted in your job licence being terminated (or something like that, dunno how you could call that in English).

Now you could say that you just should move on from having lost your licence and that your 3 years of training have not been a waste of time since you learned from it, but that does not change the fact that you have to do the three years of training again in order to get a real licence.

You know, when something becomes too inflexible, it just becomes unnecessarily frustrating.

@ShadowAegis-1537

First it shouldn’t take you 80 hours to figure out that the build you are using isn’t working

The numbers were arbitrary and just used for the purpose of illustration.

@ShadowAegis-1537

You would still have to level a seasonal character to earn stash space if you don’t already have all tabs. You are punished for not leveling a seasonal character by not getting any unlockable stash space.

I personally don’t think that stash space should be a reward for seasons.

I think

• cosmetics,
• prestige / social recognition (leaderboards, acheivements that can only attained by doing hard content or world first races,
• special transmogs or pets, etc
• season themes,
• new items that can only found in season before they can be found in non-seasonal after the season ends
• staring in a new fresh environment and economy where everyone and not just you is starting from scratch,
• etc …

should be things to incentivize people, but not essential stuff like stash space.

@ShadowAegis-1537

It doesn’t matter the reason why you are leveling a different character.

Yes, it does. See my previous comment to Inquisition.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Unlock softcore non season, when you crack 70 you never have to level another character of the same class again unless you want to.

I am not advocating for a 100% flexible respecing system such as the one D3 has, but rather for something in the middle.

[Inquisition-11590]

@UngivenFame-1419

@Inquisition-11590

I am referring to any situation where you want to change your build significantly or fundamentally. For example - base it on a different skill. This might be because, as in your example, you want to change from a “levelling” build to your final form. But you might also decide that the skill(s) you invested in simply aren’t working like you wanted. Or you might find a powerful item suitable for another build, and want to change to that build to use it.

From my point of view, 2 out of three of those are unacceptable. This is one issue I have with Grim Dawn is its so much more efficient to level with something like devouring swarm even if your planning on a savagery build because of how cheaply you can totally unlearn a skill or two even after having completely maxed them. There are things you could do like locking skills level 2 behind player level 4 to somewhat mitigate that situation but you also have to lock in a skills development after a certain point. I am completely against a game where it is most efficient to have a leveling build regardless of your endgame goal. I am also against the idea that finding a powerful item suitable for another build that you want to use, you should just be able to unlearn everything respec and make your build suit it. Those two things together I think are entirely unsuitable and inconducive to the longer term entertainment of a game like this type. Its an RPG, its not call of duty where you just decide to be a sniper instead of a machine gunner the next match, it doesn’t require the same sort of skills of a shooter game, its about making different characters and enduring the journey for late blooming builds or to enjoy that nice item you found is what its about.

Now the second option is something that you want to avoid or mitigate… It is disheartening to realize what you did sucked. Sometimes, like D2, there is really no indications that your build is going to hit a brick wall. Ideally you would avoid situations like that (not going to derail the conversation by naming those). Players should be able to learn and experiment. But to allow infinitely changing builds based on “oh I found this item let me respec” or “oh I just want to level with this easy build then respec to meta endgame build later” is fundmentally against the heart and soul of the genre and deterimental to the long term sustainability of the game.

I fully agree.

A good system would have some latitude for juggling around a few points here and there - for example to correct mistakes, or to allow experimentation with one or two points in a skill.

But changing a fully specialised lightning sorceress into a fire sorceress because you found some Really Fiery Gloves should require a new character. Really Fiery Gloves are no good to a lightning sorceress. Same goes for changing a fully specialised powerlevelling Devouring Swarm shaman into an endgame Storm Totem shaman. That should be a new character.

[Demonmonger-1509]

All I know is that I would greatly prefer skill trees over class sets!

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@Oblivion-1520

Having respec wouldn’t stop you from making mistakes when building a character, instead it’ll allow players the opportunity to repair or fix said mistakes. If that’s unappealing, you’re more than free to just make a new character anyway as others have said previously throughout this thread.

Both you and I are no doubt for earned respecs. We have discussed it many times. Now if your stance is different then so be it. Where you want free and infinite respecs then that is your stance.

@Gr8Hornytoad-1880

The ability to experiment and to completely change a single character from one extreme to another is not what RPG’s are about. They are about defining and developing a role. Perhaps it isn’t really RPG’s that you wish to play.

Agreed, to me infinite and free respecs means that the game is just a continual experimental sandbox game without a soul. That will not be fun to play for very long for those that like rpgs for what they truly are.

@Rowend-1924

You two seem to be mashing together the two concepts : releveling and new seasons…but are conveniently leaving out other factors in understanding why someone would want to do one thing but not the other even if they’re conceptually the same.

I know that to you and others it is okay for seasons and hardcore to force you to re-roll just to play or try new builds or for whatever reason you play seasons for. But not for non season non hardcore.

I am wanting D4 to be more than just a continual experimental sandbox game. If you are truly for earned respecs through whatever means that D4 devs make them then we are both on the same page and can move on to other topics.

@Rowend-1924

I really can’t symphathize with this specific plight you guys are bringing up(and it’s ultimately irrelevant I feel to your original thread…it doesn’t even matter pointing the hypocrisy of it all…it’s just trollish in nature…

Respecs are part of a skill system. Because that is what you are doing you are re-specializing your character. Changing your characters specialization. Maybe you got tired of having a WW barb and wanted to use your earned respecs to change him into a Hammer of the Ancients barb.

@Shurgosa-1196

Deep interesting elements of character advancement didn’t appear in D3, I very much doubt they will appear in D:Immortal, and do not at all expect them at all in D4.

I need to learn the members of the team that is developing D4 along with their vision for D4. Also how much freedom will that dev team have to develop D4 the way it needs to be done. Because at the end of the day even the dev team has to listen to their bosses (suits). So in my courtroom the jury is still out as far as what will be the vision for D4 till I see the dev team along with learning of the vision for D4.

@Shurgosa-1196

Well the announcement of an entire new game that is nothing but a further dumbed down rehash of D3 for kiddies to click on while they use the toilet sure speaks volumes…

Be completely honest here, what is easier to make as a phone game. A.) A remastered D2:LOD or B.) D3? I am sure that you would pick D3. Then add in the fact that Wyatt Cheng is the lead dev of the team that is working on the phone game. So he would love to have more of the same for that game.

At the end of the day the phone game is just a cash grab so it doesn’t have to be complex and deep to be a cash grab.

@Shurgosa-1196

If that was at all likely, D3 character building and item finding would not be the little pair of childish jokes that it currently is.

So just Because D3 is the way that it is they will keep making the future sequels more of the same. I don’t think that will be what will happen with D4.

[Shurgosa-1196]

@ShadowAegis-1537

So just Because D3 is the way that it is they will keep making the future sequels more of the same. I don’t think that will be what will happen with D4.

Oh heavens no, its not a 100% guarantee at all. However I just expect 1 more shallow kiddie cash grab after having suffered through 2 of them in the past 6+ years.

They cant just keep dropping one shallow piece of trash after another, and I’m just doing to keep saying, the next title will be far deeper or more entertaining etc…

If they want me to assume they will release a flavour packed hard edged ARPG worth admiring, they will actually have to make one that I can play. then i will
happily assume they actually know what they are doing, the way I did before D3 was released.

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@clueso-2790

You are basically saying that these two things are the same because the results are the same, but I beg to differ with that.

Oh just because hardcore and seasons are not 100% identical to non season and non hardcore. That makes the leveling a character portion of them non existent, trivial, it really doesn’t matter at all. Where players could be given a level 70 character and it would be meaningless. Just as meaningless as starting from level 1 right.

You are just saying hey look at all of these other differences and forget about what they share in common. Those parts don’t exist, now remember they don’t exist. That is insane and you know it.

You love the continual experimental sandbox that is D3. But I want D4 to be more than that. I want to earn respecs in D4. So if I need to change things then I can earn that ability to do so.

@clueso-2790

Let me come up with an analogy.

Your analogy is lacking in so many departments.

@clueso-2790

Let’s say there is a small company where you have been an apprentice to get your job training and the company seemed legit, but now it turned out that the company was lacking licences and was doing shady stuff behind their backs and that when the police investigated that all and bought it to the daylight, it resulted in your job licence being terminated (or something like that, dunno how you could call that in English).

Most license jobs that I know of usually take a degree before even coming close to getting a license, here I am thinking lawyer and doctor. Sure there might be some that you can get a license for that is without a degree but those would be ones that wouldn’t come to my mind atm.

There are so many questions to ask concerning this on the job training.

@clueso-2790

Now you could say that you just should move on from having lost your licence and that your 3 years of training have not been a waste of time since you learned from it, but that does not change the fact that you have to do the three years of training again in order to get a real licence.

One, is the job that I have learned to do a job that wouldn’t be breaking any laws? If yes then it wouldn’t be that hard to get a license because I already know what is needed to be done. I might even prove to the new employer that even though the other job gave me a phony license I did learn how to do the job right.

Two if it is a job that is against the law then I have learned how to better spot scams and con men so I wouldn’t wind up paying the penalty of either jail or prison time. I would do a much better job of investigating the company and the job itself before accepting such a job. Those are just two areas I might be able to come up more if I deeply think about this topic.

It is always a good idea to turn a negative into a positive. Besides your analogy doesn’t really fit games anyway.

you still learn something about either the game or the build that you are playing. You will move on and learn not to make those same mistakes yet again.

@clueso-2790

Let me come up with an analogy.

If you remember me from the older forums you should know my stance on tying stash space behind seasons.

[A1Jao-1468]

they can monetize the respec tbh.

[Kiadaw-2262]

It’s cheeky to use terms like “fun fact”, but what you are saying is essential an opinion.

But not everyone think alike. Some people like to have one character that can do more than one thing good. They like character with flexibility and more all rounder.

Everyone has there own thoughts on character development. Some like super rigid skill tree like d2( pre respec) where you are committed to your skills. Some like the free allocation of skill like D3 so you do not have to create so many new characters.

The key is to find a good middle ground.

[Rowend-1924]

@ShadowAegis-1537

But not for non season non hardcore.

I mean, effectively I want to have the various commitments we bring up in this thread in hardcore. I want them in softcore, I want them in season. I want them in non season. I don’t know if I’m giving a different impression or what, but gun to my head…I’m completely fine with an 8+ on a theoretical scale we’re discussing.

All I can say is that I’m also flexible obviously. Offer anything slightly higher than D3’s current level and I’ll consider it a victory that Blizzard learned something from D3. Go the opposite direction, then yeah I’ll start losing hope.

@ShadowAegis-1537

then we are both on the same page and can move on to other topics.

I mean I was going to write another long rant, but tldr; if you’re asking me on a personal level. We are.

The only issue I have isn’t that debate of the concept of the two like I’m denying their similarity. I’m only denying that there aren’t different motivating factors in the two that play into players minds. We’re all different. I’m speaking generically that I can definitely see why they want things to be easy in one mode of play, but not the other without labeling them as a “hypocrite”.

Basically people might be arguing with you on the forums for ultimatums in the opposite of what you want, and you’re calling them out. But in a general sense, I don’t think everyone thinks that way…which is why you’re slightly losing my support on this issue.

D3 and PoE function differently to a wild extent. They both have seasons(or leagues) though. The existence of temporary servers have no negative impact on my mind. The lack of “commitment” to a build in D3 does anger me…but as I can already tell…you guys aren’t even necessarily arguing against people like me because ultimately I want the same things you do.

All I can say that D3 might be missing the cake, but it’s not like I suddenly dislike frosting.

That seems to be irrelevant to some of you(not anyone specifically). It’s not to me, which is why I bring it up.

[clueso-2790]

@ShadowAegis-1537

You are basically saying that these two things are the same because the results are the same, but I beg to differ with that.

Oh just because hardcore and seasons are not 100% identical to non season and non hardcore. That makes the leveling a character portion of them non existent, trivial, it really doesn’t matter at all. Where players could be given a level 70 character and it would be meaningless. Just as meaningless as starting from level 1 right.

You are just saying hey look at all of these other differences and forget about what they share in common. Those parts don’t exist, now remember they don’t exist. That is insane and you know it.

I was not talking about season and hardcore not being 100% identical, but rather that there is a difference between having to make a new character because of seasons (you are being incentived) and f*ing up your char and not being able to re-adjust / respecing it at all (you are being punished) and the framing that Inquisition used in this context to tackle my argument.

@ShadowAegis-1537

You love the continual experimental sandbox that is D3. But I want D4 to be more than that. I want to earn respecs in D4. So if I need to change things then I can earn that ability to do so.

I don’t. Just like you, I also want that respecs are earned in D4.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Most license jobs that I know of usually take a degree before even coming close to getting a license, here I am thinking lawyer and doctor. Sure there might be some that you can get a license for that is without a degree but those would be ones that wouldn’t come to my mind atm.

There are so many questions to ask concerning this on the job training.

I don’t know how this works in the US, here in Germany it might work differently. Or mybe "licence" was not the correct word in this context. Maybe "certificate that you completed your job training at an approved facility" or something like that would have been more correct.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Let me come up with an analogy.

If you remember me from the older forums you should know my stance on tying stash space behind seasons.

I can’t remember everything anyone said…

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@clueso-2790

I was not talking about season and hardcore not being 100% identical, but rather that there is a difference between having to make a new character because of seasons (you are being incentived) and f*ing up your char and not being able to re-adjust / respecing it at all (you are being punished) and the framing that Inquisition used in this context to tackle my argument.

The whole point is that you still have to level a new character to just to play the same build, fix a build or try a new build. Still leveling is tied to it regardless of the reason you have to level a new character.

@clueso-2790

I can’t remember everything anyone said…

I was on the side of those that said Blizz was using it to paid their MAUs for seasons to make seasons appear more successful to the suits (investors). I still feel that way today.

[Gr8Hornytoad-1880]

@clueso-2790

I don’t. Just like you, I also want that respecs are earned in D4.

If they are earned and allow for adapting but make drastic changes and constant rerolling impractical then I’m with you. But trivial requirements that enable a similar outcome to free respecs is not the kind of “earning” I believe is required to promote a quality meaningful lasting RPG experience.