Important Discussion about the importance of Trading

General Discussion
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Hello guys. Lifelong diablo player and video gamer here. Played the most popular titles, and have watch legends rise and fall.

I’m here to talk about trading, because I’m seeing a lot of people arguing against trading and they wish to have Diablo 4’s system similar to Diablo 3’s.

Now before I delve into this discussion, just want to point out that every Diablo 2 & 3 veteran (MrLlama, Alkaizer, Quin, Rhykker, Gabynator, Kripparian, etc) all agree on the importance of open trading. Maybe not fully open, but open enough to make a player economy viable and allow people to rise in power by trading their unneeded items for somethin useful.

I just want to give one scenario. Imagine you’re playing Diablo 4 on Hardcore, you main Barbarian and finally get to Uber Diablo (example). You’ve been playing non stop 12 hours a day because you heard Uber Diablo drops the absolute best items. You kill him, and a best in slot wand drops for sorceress. You can’t trade it, you can’t equip or use it, you can just look at it. Imagine how bummed out you’d be. Bummed out after killing an incredibly difficult boss and not being rewarded from it. This is what the current casuals/whiners of the forum want. You to not be rewarded because you can’t trade that wand for something equivalent. This would probably turn off a lot of players.

Now why is the player bummed out. Because that incredibly rare item you just found all of a sudden has zero value because you can’t do anything with it, except maybe salvage it which is a shame for such a powerful item.

What kind of implemented system would make the player get excited after finding this item? An open trading system. One where you can trade this item for one of equal power for yourself to equip, or multiple lower powered items. No I’m not going to reroll sorceress because I like Barbarian playstyle and just invested 500 hours into my main.

Arguments against open trading I’ve been reading, and my points refuting them:

  1. Bots + Black markets.
  2. Trading is a forced and boring playstyle.
  3. Market’s get flooded and everyone has every unique available for cheap.
  1. First of all, if you look at any video game, or commodity in real life even, there will be atleast one individual who will create a black market to profit off of. These people are very few in numbers, why? Because the majority of people like playing within the rules. Bots are just programmed extensions of the human brain which skilled players will create to abuse EVERYTHING possible on the internet, there is no stopping this, just damage control which is Blizzard’s job. Does the federal government rid of USD because of illegal drug trades and black markets? Absolutely not. The people playing within the rules should not have their trading privileges revoked due to a few bad apples. Some video game companies do a very good job of handling these, some handle it very poorly. A multi BILLION dollar company should think of a clever system to handle these, and protect people playing within the rules, because that’s what happens in real life. Rule breakers get punished hard. Not rule followers.

  1. I would like to say one thing, trading is a part of human nature. It’s been happening since we’ve been harvesting crops to trade for other resources. It’s in our blood to trade. Not only that but some people play certain video games for the sole purpose of trading. I have many friends like this, because a lot of people in real life also like to amass their wealth, save, and reinvest because it’s actually really fun if you try it and are successful with it. It feels rewarding. I’m not a hoarder, or pure trader, but when I do trade an item that’s completely useless for me for another item of value, it feels incredibly rewarding. Holding that rare item from a hard boss in your stash until you find someone who needs it, theres more than one level of satisfaction because 2 people are helping out each other. This brings a sense of connection between players, and especially COMMUNITY and CLANS. People help out each other through trading, which will help with people actually interacting with each other in game. Unlike Diablo 3. You just pickup everything, don’t even look at the stats, and press salvage. Which brings me to my third point.

  2. Markets flooded with great uniques for cheap. First of all there’s a reason this happened in Diablo 3, and even in Diablo 3’s failed system this statement is NOT entirely true. I will say two things, bad/overly simplified itemization and Auction house. Rare items are not rare, they’re common. Legendaries are NOT legendary. They’re barely even rare. Magic and white items are completely useless and might as well have been dropped as salvaging mats instead of the item, because NO ONE LOOKS AT THE STATS. They’re just salvage feed, including many ‘legendaries’ too. How can an item be tied to a ‘legend’ if it’s so boring/weak enough for a player to not even read the affixes and straight up destroy it for crafting material. The reason why markets get flooded with items that get progressively worthless is because of power-creep and no deflation. For example, this is why playing Hardcore feels so much more rewarding. Because of the top tier items constantly being lost to deaths, which makes almost every single item way more valuable because the great ones are constantly being lost/destroyed. It’s also harder to acquire those items. It’s very evident in RPGS that Hardcore mode uniques are worth way more than the same item on softcore. These aspects should be taken into consideration for Softcore Diablo 4. Items taken out of circulation (easiest/laziest method is salvage), items being hard to obtain (rare means rare, not common), and being conscious of item power creep. Now the reason why a market “got flooded” is because everyone had access to this general auction house. Everyone who progressed a month into the game would toss everything on the auction house and willing to undercut others. This is great for the game but also bad. It’s great because you can find value of your unneeded items quickly, and gain strength to yourself, but this is also VERY BAD because it cuts the middle operation out of the equation. Finding a player, interacting with them, discuss and barter. This was one of the reasons the Diablo 2 community is so tightly bonded. Because you had to go out and look for trading worlds, or create your own and wait if you want to exchange that power and feel satisfied. This action created friends, created communities, and made you feel good enough you’d come back and do it again another time once your stash got full. It also provided a UNIQUE & RANDOM experience for the user which one cannot predict which in other terms is FUN. Sure some of us will just open trade and say wuw/wug (what you want, what you got?). But some of us liquidated our entire stash to trade for that 32 all res hoto, and barter/convince the other player that you really need this item, which created a satisfactory element of the game in a unique way.

Just want to add Open trading will create UNIQUE markets. For example, people in Diablo 2 traded a full inventory of unidentified pelts (druid helm that were coloured) as a set for a high rune or a couple. People gave you the materials and formula for a runeword so that you can make it yourself in your inventory, instead of them making it initially and trading the product to you.

One other thing I’d like to add. FREE WORLDS. Remember when you’re browsing diablo 2 worlds and you see a free world with one open slot and you just make it in, then theres a lvl 95 dropping all of his gear because he’s quitting. This was one of the most satisfying feelings in diablo 2 and I made so many friends by creating free worlds in normal mode for low levels to enjoy my uniques that I don’t find worth taking up my stash space, and not valuable enough that I’d want to milk someone of their resources for them. Why? Because people are generous. A lot of people on this earth look to help others and one way they do that in video games is free loot. Once again this will boost player interaction in ways you cannot even imagine. Completely unique experiences for both ends of the party. Feels good to give, and feels good to receive.

I want the same excitement I get from finding a 20/20 pally torch from Diablo 2 Ubers, or the same excitement I got from Vanilla Diablo 3 finding a 3 socket all res / int / vit chest piece and selling it on the RMAH for $250.00. Pure raw adrenaline and excitement. Something which would make me keep coming back, and something which Reaper of Souls could not possibly fulfill, not for me, or anyone I’ve talked to.

10 Likes
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Meh. Trading takes time away from actually playing the game. If I wanted to play a market simulator, I’d go play a market simulator, instead of an ARPG about killing monsters and demons.

Trading might have been exciting for boomers way back in the days of D2; that doesn’t mean it should be a key component of D4.

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I always enjoy playing through the game and finding valuable items is always more rewarding than trading for them, but simply having the ability to trade makes the overall experience so much more enjoyable. Loot doesn’t necessarily have to be balanced around trade, loot should be balanced so that powerful, rare items are indeed powerful and rare. What’s the point in difficulty or risk & reward when all powerful items and end-game content is made accessible to noobs?

That said, it’s possible to implement a variety of gameplay systems which appeal to either the casual audience or the hardcore audience. The casual audience might enjoy short bursts of entertainment while the hardcore players might enjoy things that take time, skill, and knowledge.

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That’s the thing though, you don’t have to trade if you don’t want to. It’s not forced upon a player to trade. I didn’t trade in diablo 3 vanilla even though the Auction house was an option until I farmed out a full stash of GFG gear I would never use, because the gear was meaningless to me, and finding meaning in that gear felt great to be able to trade it away, without having to spend another 100 hours rolling another character and progressing just to find a little use of an item.

Where as the other way around, we’re being forced to not trade. Which would mean this game is essentially a single player game for a lot of us. An online single player game.

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To me its ok to grow your character beyond the need for magic/white items. magics/whites should be useful in the beginning because the drop rate shouldn’t be so high as it is in D3, but to me its a failure of item design, were a magic item more useful than a legendary in ANY situation.

There’s something else that pro-traders don’t admit to as much, that Blizzard games aren’t niche, they are huge in audience. People who create black markets to profit off of, aren’t few when it comes to Blizzard, its more than people, its small companies that pop up and attempt to control black markets, and its players to look to profit by feeding those companies.

How do you solve the problem with former D3 AH? Namely, that your upgrades basically came from other people rather than monsters/demons? Or the problem that D3 had and PoE has, that its hard to escape the feeling that you are playing to maximize your currency gain rather than find loot for your character.

This has been said since the days of D3V, if you want full open trade, then support Solo Self Found mode! Pro-traders failed to do this back in D3V and continually fought against SSF. Neither got what they wanted in the end, but traders came out worse.

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To be fair that feeling only really comes into it if you’re looking to get into the trading market.

I’d support a SSF game mode, but there really isn’t a rule that says a player can’t play SSF via self imposed rules. It basically just comes down to a lack of willpower to do it(or I guess feeling like you need to have your name put up on a ladder of some kind for it).

The problem I have with how Diablo 3 currently plays is that it feels like I reach a point where 99% of the loot I get is worthless. I already have the basic items I want for my build, so I’m just farming the same items over and over and over until the RNG blesses me with slightly improved stats on the same items I already have on.

and worthless loot isn’t exciting loot. It seems like the greatest sin that these types of games could commit is making loot boring, given how much of the game revolves around it.

Granted I’m a casual player of D3 when I do play it so maybe there’s something the top players do I don’t know about, but that’s just how it feels to me.

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Remember what the forums and chat were like with ‘open trading’? 24 7 365 endless spam in every single forum and channel. “WTB/WTS GODLY bracers/amulet/helmet…” It became the whole game, because drop rates were balanced around it. Want to improve your character? Don’t play the game, go shopping instead. A limited trading system in D4, where items of the same level could be exchanged, with no haggling/bartering BS, might be OK, as long as it didn’t get in the way of the game.

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I have some great news for you. You don’t have to trade. Even if trading is in, since you don’t like it, just don’t do it.

Amazing.

They hopefully will listen to feedback and add a self found only option too. Then you can have special status and everyone will know how pure you are.

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Funny that, when this game did have open trading you actually did have to do it, there was no other way to improve your character. If I can exchange an item for another of the same level from another player, one trade per item with no negotiations or auctions in D4, that’d be fine. Any more than that and it’s a chore.

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Funny that in Path of Exile you don’t have to trade, and the game even includes a SSF mode. Even in Diablo 2 you could do it(getting to 100% optimized would be a lot harder, but you could still make plenty progress).

It’s almost as if open trading can work provided the developers don’t design the drop rates around wanting to push a specific micro-transaction platform like the RMAH, but instead actually design it around being a good game.

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Diablo 3’s major mistake was balancing gameplay around the auction house, and then removing the auction house. So many people think that if trading is implemented loot has to be balanced around it, that’s simply not true. Diablo 2 single player and Path of Exile SSF mode have no trade, but are playable and fun even for casuals.

Trade or not, rare items should be rare, not spoon-fed.

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If trading is such an important thing for the Diablo series, then it should be designed in such a way that most of the playerbase can use it easily. It shouldn’t use a completely outdated and cumbersome direct bartering system that most of the playerbase won’t want to use.

There are better ways of limiting the amount of items on the market board:

  • Limit the number of items that a player can have up on the market board.
  • Implement a listing fee that goes up with the gold that the seller is asking for the item.
  • Make items bind on equip.

And I’m sure there are plenty of others.

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Yep not to compare D4 to PoE. But PoE’s trading system is amazing. 100x fold better than Diablo 3’s because there is no trading. Comparable to Diablo 2’s because you both have to be online and meet up in person to trade, which allowed for bargains and barters.

  1. Which shows exactly how many people want to actually trade.
  2. You cant trade up to a GFG item while having nothing. You still have to work up to that equal level of wealth to obtain that traded item you so desire.
  3. The only way to progress is with trading? Not true at all. Not sure what game you’re talking about. But every single game that has trading involved theres a big community revolved around solo self found. Runescape theres Ironman, PoE there solo-self found, both which have HUGE distinguished communities. World of warcraft theres trading and the system is not broken.
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RESTRICTIVE TRADE is whats needed to GARBAGE OPEN trade so we let in the 3rd party chinese seller sites.
Not being able to sell BIS or TOP TIER gear is perfectly viable option

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The problem is that this doesn’t really address the underlying problem brought up in the OP.

With what you describe I could still take on a high level boss, see an item drop and get excited, only for it to turn out that item has no value to me.

With how Diablo 3 works at least, killing bosses and seeing an explosion of loot isn’t exciting to me because the response is “Oh look, more crafting materials”.

At the very least if trading is going to be restricted to the point where it’s next to useless, then we need to have something we can do with off-class drops that isn’t just boring crafting materials we already had tons of.

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The game has been a mess since launch, that is true. But trading is not why it was a mess. There are many reasons why. The auction houses were a part of the problem. Nobody is asking for an auction house.

Simple open trading is very different to an auction house. The auction house streamlines trading to the point of you simply having to click 1 button to sell or buy an item. That ease encourages everyone to use it, which causes the problem.

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If you dont like trading tham simply don’t do it and farm your loot trough slaying monsters…noone forces you to trade.

Theyre surely many player like me who love trading bcs.

  1. it makes a good drop even more exciting…even if you don’t need the item you know that you found something good and can trade it for something equial good to min/max your build. (Without trading = simply disenchant and not rly satisfying)

  2. The droprate of legendarys is way lower (again more satisfaction if you find one).
    Currently at D3 you dont even identify 60% of the items (even 80-90% in endgame if its not ancient/primal) bcs its raining legendarys and they’re nothing worth.

Only 2 examples of many,…dont want to wall of text here.

Maybe its not exciting for you but for many others it is.

Thats also why many people play POE…one of the reasons is the great trade economy.
The feeling of happiness when you find a item thats worth 10EX or more…1000 times stronger than finding all slots primal in Diablo 3. :wink:

So why shouldn’t it be possible in Diablo 4 when a Indie dev team shows that it can be done right?

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Hey, Neeb!

Everything trading offers could be replaced by an AI crafting/vendor system. See this:

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Hooray, I can sell this for 10 bucks on the forum!

And this is what ruins the game for everybody else except for Chinese pro farmers and Pay2Win-players. Thanks for speaking it out openly.

Trading has to go. Or be restricted to blues and yellows (they actually didn’t say anything different at Blizzcon).

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I’d personally be extremely incentivized to try out another build. Which imo is a great thing in an A-RPG.

Unless droprates are ridiculously high, you are going to have a very high chance of not getting anything great anyway. Why is this different?

Also happens in other games though. Plenty of good items nearly for free.

Exactly.

You are limiting yourself to an insane degree if you dont abuse trading in PoE. Because the game is balanced around it. It directly affects your gameplay.
That argument is like saying D3 droprates are fine if you just limit yourself to only picking up every tenth item.

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