If there is a "Paragon-like System" in D4, it should only reward Cosmetics, not power

General Discussion
1

If there is a System in D4 that rewards players for playing the game and giving them a bit of progress, even if they don’t get much new items (which was the intent of the Paragon System in D3), it should reward Cosmetic Items only, instead of power like in D3.

The idea is simple:

  • instead of Paragon Points, you gain “Paragon Currency” for every Paragon Level you make.
  • lets say you gain 10 or 100 Paragon Currency per Paragon Level
  • you then can either spend the currency immediately on something that is worth 100 Paragon Currency, or save it to buy something more expensive.

Either you can buy these cosmetics from a Pop-up Window or from a Vendor, it doesn’t matter.

There should be a large amounts cosmetics, that include:

  • Portrait Frames
  • Banners
  • Pets
  • Mounts
  • Transmogs
  • new UI / Hotbar Design
  • new Skill Animations
  • new Sounds for Skills or Casting, etc
  • Elemental Enchantment Transmogs for Weapons (Fire, Lightning, Bleed, etc)
  • new Music, or maybe Music from Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 that then plays in specific zones.
  • but NO WINGS! Wings are too immersion breaking!
  • etc

On a sidenote, Paragon XP and Paragon Level for such a Cosmetics based "Paragon-like System) would/should also be gained even while you are not at your Maximum Character Level and maybe it should even be account-wide.

To give an analogy from another Blizzard game:

In WoW there was a similar Problem in Legion and BfA with Artifact Power and Azerite Power, where in a way were similar to Paragon. You constantly had to grind them to get more Power and if you didn’t grind it, you were significantly less powerful, which means it was almost mandatory to Grind AP.

In a few of WoW’s recent zones (like Mechagon) and also in the new upcoming expansion Shadowlands, they have changed it so that you don’t grind for Power, but rather for Cosmetics, etc, so that it has become more like a side-activity that feels good to do whenever you feel like, rather than something that is mandatory (like the Paragon Grind in D3).

I am not saying that we shouldn’t farm for power, but that this farming for power should take the form of Farming for Powerful Items, rather than grinding Paragon like in D3.

If there is Paragon, it therefore should only grant access to Cosmetics rather than Power.

11 Likes
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Endless power from paragon would be a mistake in Diablo 4.

Paragon system was the biggest fault in Diablo 3. If they had scrapped the paragon design 5 years ago and went in the direction of build diversity by altering sets importance, right now we would have a working game.

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I would stop playing the game then, when reaching paragon point limit.
There’s no reason anymore…

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If there would be one…
It wouldn’t be like the Blood Shard Cap in D3, since there also would be Cosmeetics that you have to save a ton of Currency for.

Also, jsut to reiterate, you would only gain Cosmetics from it, not Power.

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There are more than 1 problem in D3, at least 3 of them HUGE… “fixing” i.e. removing one thing and one potential thing without replacing it with anything else impactful hardly solves anything…

TBH the only, like, the ONLY thing that might save D3 interest for gameplay (for a while at least) is like give us a “reverse” gameplay, i.e. where you’re one of the bosses (in tiny form or whatever) and play against Nephalems or something… The Seasonal themes are just a scratch of that kind of “added freshness” but IMO, need be more thorough and more radical with it

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True enough. Limiting paragon-like only satisfied players like me and other players that only have around 1k~2k paragon, but will completely turning off those players who got their character to 4k~5k paragon in every season.

What are those players with 4k~5k paragon going to do in the game that has a limited paragon-like system? They will quit after a week after they reached the cap. The reason why do you still find many people, especially those leaderboard players, playing D3 Season until today is due to the paragon level and they are still farming it.

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Yep, agreed. IF there is an endless lvling system, then only offer cosmetic rewards.

Could also sometimes offer a “bounty chest”, with crafting mats etc. That would be power, but not ‘extra power’, merely a little boost in item acquisition, within an existing limited power-gain system (items). That would be pretty harmless.

I think it would be better not to have a paragon system at all though.
Reward those cosmetics from doing stuff on the game instead. Achievements and such.

There can be an end-game lvling system, representing the 85-99 grind in Diablo 2 etc. BUT it should be very limited. It should be ‘per character’. It should give power where you need to pick and choose, rather than get everything. So not like paragon at all.

There could be something like a season journey, D3 style, but with a lot more achievements/challenges.
It starts easy, as in D3; Reach max lvl, finish a key dungeon, liberate a camp in the overworld etc.
Expanding throughout the end-game. Finish all key dungeon locations. Kill Boss X in all its different affix versions. Liberate all camps in the overworld. Complete a tier 10 Key dungeon without dying. Kill all uber bosses. Solo a world boss. Reach maximum survival bonus. Kill Boss Y with no gear equipped. Etc.

Main difference would be, each of these achievements/challenges gives you 1-5 paragon lvls. Which can then be spend on various bonuses.
The journey has a hard cap. No endless paragon lvling!
Maybe you can get to paragon 500, if you do every single challenge. Maybe maxing the bonuses you can spend points on, would require 1000 points; so you have to actually choose which bonuses to get.
Some challenges could be account-wide, most would be per character. The whole point here should be that it is something you might want to try with different characters and builds.
Like, ‘lvl all classes to max’ could give 5 paragon points for all chars on your account. ‘Finish a tier 10 key dungeon with no deaths’ might give 3 points for the specific character who did it (and could of course be done on multiple chars).
While most of the achievements/challenges would be the same from season to season, like with D3 season journeys, some challenges could be new each time.
Would be way more enjoyable than XP farming imo.

2 Likes
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You all need to understand, that Paragon came into D3, because it wasn’t fun, to be level 60 (at that time 70 didn’t exsist) and try overcoming Act II again and again.
So paragon came for a reason and that reason remains today and actually in all games, which wants an everlasting endgame.
If you make a limit to a game, then its finish, done, over and out, when that limit is reached. Ofc you can start all over if you like, but today its raining in games, so why not try something else.
So Paragon is a solution, whatever you like it or not. Other games do it differently, maybe opens up for new groups of weapon, and power creeps that way.

Actually envy is the only reason to hate paragon, but hey, I also want a Ferrari, but i’m not going to work my way towards it, so maybe my UP! Is fine enough for me. :wink:

3 Likes
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I think there should be both.

Gain cosmetics from “Paragon”, from Achievements and also from certain events, like Uber Bosses.

I think there should be something that rewards players for farming XP and playing their character even after it is maxed and geared out. This is why I think such a system that rewards cosmetics maes sense.

I a gree to a certain extend. imo leveling to max level should take about as long as it took in D2 to reach Level 90-93, but not as long as to Level 99.

And Paragon Level and Paragon XP should be gained even while you are not on your maximum Character Level and also be Account-wide

Sounds kinda fine.
The challenges need to get harder and harder, tough.

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Whats the different to level from 0 to 99 or paragon to 99999?

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Then people try something else. It is fine.
Blizzard should mostly be interested in getting you back when they release a new content update.
Better to keep 100000 players around sometimes, than 100 players around all the time.

It is a bad solution. It makes the game worse.

  1. Hard lvl cap vs. virtually endless lvls - makes it a pointless treadmill
  2. Hard power cap vs. virtually endless power - impossible to balance a game with endless power scaling
  3. Pointless and boring system if you can get literally everything. Goes against the concept of an RPG.
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Sure. The latter examples here would presumably be much harder than the first ones (kill boss X naked vs. finishing a key dungeon etc.).
Essentially Season Journey in D3 (just with some more interesting challenges), fused into a power progression system.

Rewarding people (if you consider cosmetics a reward) for playing characters after they are maxed out? Sure. Rewarding people for farming XP? I dont see why the game should do that. XP grind is a pointless and boring way to “challenge” people.

1 Like
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  1. When you reach cap, the game don’t change! If you still play, then its also pointless treadmill. Actually even more, because you feel no progress vs paragon level-up.
  2. Yes, that can be a challenge. True.
  3. The Paragon system do not control droprate. Two different aspect.
    Maybe you actually mean The Cube and Kadala, needs to be gone.
    Before you ask that, ask yourself why it was implanted in the first place. (Vanilla D3 didn’t had both).
2 Likes
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Gear is a progression. And not a pointless one, due to its different affixes and gameplay changes.
Lvlling is not pointless, as you unlock new abilities and upgrades.
Paragon 1-800 is technically not pointless, as you unlock new bonuses (though in practice it is, since it is the same old bonuses). Paragon 800+ is completely meaningless and bad for the game.

I am not talking about droprate.
You can get all the bonuses in the paragon system. At lvl 800 you are done. That should never ever happen in an RPG.

2 Likes
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Lets say we didn’t had Paragon and only power from better gear.

When you have a 648 Dex chest with otherwise perfect stats. So you feel power from a Better with 650 Dex.
Lets Pretend you end up with all perfect gear, then what?
It’s like reaching the top!
It’s like finishing your singleplayer game!
You had come to an end!
Paragon never ends…
Even if you end it, before it will ends you…

Just the natural time to move on, because everything in life, have an end.

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Which is good.
Having an end to something is not a problem that needs to be fixed.

Except paragon apparently (yeah, yeah, 20000, I know)

That is not good item progression.
The progression should be affixes that changes your gameplay etc.
(of course, more of a stat can sometimes change gameplay, like reaching a breakpoint in “proc chance” affix that makes some build workable etc.

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I have no problem with that.

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most games have a power cap
just because some people adapted to this weird idea and kept pushing, doesnt mean that they cant live with more relatable and professional systems
also looking at D2 level 99
i dont see many people complaining while most people are not reaching it apparently and its finite

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Yeah, that is what I mean: rewarding players to play characters even after they are maxed and geared out.

I just couldn’t find a better way to phrase it at the time of me having written that and so I went to the next best thing that came to my head, which was “grinding XP”.

I once had a great picture that illustrated how different item progression is between D2 and D3, but I couldn’t find it on my imgur account. I maybe have to redo it…

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Offtopic here but its better to repeat it sometimes. Paragon lvl which means something and gives power - bad, smart loot - bad, individual loot - disaster, boa - disaster(maby just few fabular but usefull uquipable items). Thx.