I6, collateral damage

So, with the nerf targeting I2A6N2 Bombardment builds, I6 also got hit quite heavily. While they got buffed as well, I don’t think the buffs are up to par.

Firstly, the nerf to I2 is essentially a 90% loss in damage for I6 builds. As standard play at high ranks, I6 wants to gather up enough density around elite packs that they essentially keep max I2 stacks. With the AS buff, Invoker will be able to reach the new 10 stack max much more readily, likely not even needing anything more then a modicum of density, it’s still a significant nerf. The I6 portion needs to be buffed by at least 10x to make up for it.

Sadly, it hasn’t - Going from 50% increased AS->100% increased AS may sound like a 100% damage buff to those who are mathematically illiterate, but it’s not - It’s actually a 33% buff to overall damage. The final portion of the buff is a 67500% thorns damage on primary, from 15000% - A 4.5x damage buff. The end result is a 5.9x damage buff to I6, half of what is needed to make up for the nerf to I2.

Personally, rather then boosting the I6 buff to ridiculous numbers (135000% is just too much imo), I would leave I6’s ST killing alone, and instead add to I6 a part that increases the AoE thorns proc from I2 to also be increased to 67500% Thorns damage, keeping the current playstyle of building up enough density, except instead of building density to maximize elite damage, you want to build up density to AoE down everything while the Invoker works on elites.

I highly doubt that you need to explain sth that simple to anyone reading this forum :slight_smile:

Well Sopholite did write sth about here:

However he/she didnt factor in Norvalds changes.

So i corrected it:

But it looks like i forgot the AS buff. 2/1,5 = 1,33333

Therefore we end up with 1,69 * 1,33 = 2,25 = 225% of the original I6 = 125% dmgincrease.

What you suggested makes sense. Invoker is way more satisfying with an AoE. These are the solutions I’ve seen discussed on this forum:

  1. I6 buffs I2 thorns AoE (as you said)
  2. I6 makes Slash’s thorn to weapon damage conversion apply to more than one enemy
  3. Bombardment becomes viable through other items. (I like this approach — i tried it and it felt great)

Pre-adjustment, mortal drama on I6 was the bomb (no pun intended) — in low GR130s stuff was getting slapped for 160-170T on physical without Norvald. It was enough to kill the trash in 2 cycles.

To return to that point, we need Mortal Drama cubed with Norvald and some way to keep Akarat’s Champ up with a 2hander. This would result in 115-125T hits, and we’d need 3 CoE cycles to clear the trash, which is fine in push.

The class is plagued with this problem of having no way to keep up AC when using a 2h. 100% AC uptime is mandatory for Invoker.

Awakening Shield is the only pathway to fulltime AC in 2h builds. If Norvald reduced the cooldown of AC by 4 sec on kill it, would solve many issues. You’d have to kill 8 enemies in 20 seconds to keep up AC.

It would complete the whole Invoker package and we could specialize on elites w/ Furnace or trash with Mortal Drama. Gear priories would shift depending upon which route the player wants to go:

Always CDR, then AS vs AD

Norvalds is completely seperate from I6. Sure, you will be able to use Norvalds with Invokers, but a significant number of other crusader builds will be able to use Norvalds as well, at least during the season. And if you dislike the lowered attack speed from using a 2-handed weapon, you are pretty much !@#$ed.

Don’t take Norvalds into account for balancing individual Crusader builds as it can be used with any Crusader set build.

Well…thats what the 100% AS-Buffed is for. And when using it 2.6.10 Invoker 6 has twice the dmg of 2.6.9 Invoker 6. Thats far from being a collateral dmg.

But ok lets assume you dont use Norvalds…for whatever reason then it is.


13520 * 1,33 = 17955

20045.25 / 17955 = 1,11—> 11% less dmg after “fix” = not even 1 GR-LVL in difference

So 2.6.9 I6 vs 2.6.10 Invoker 6 comes down to:

case a) (using Norvalds) : +125 % dmg

case b) (using whatever for some reason) : -11% dmg

So to me this doesn’t seem like “collateral dmg”, but i don’t know how strong I6 was to begin with. Maybe it could have used a buff anyhow

Ok, your math is still off.

First of all, where is that 17955 coming from? Specifically that 1.33x multiplier. Sure, if you just randomly add in that multiplier, then it’s only a 11% damage loss. But that would just make you wrong.

Secondly, if you factor in Norvalds, you have to factor in several other things - The loss of Attack Speed and Stricken Stacks (Keeping in mind that going from Pig Sticker to a 2-hander is roughly, what was it again, a 67% attack speed loss? That’s also 67% less Stricken stacks), the loss of Furnace (Or Mortal Drama now), the loss of stats from Pig Sticker (Pig Sticker is also +30% damage against Invoker’s best RG choice, Hamelinn, for those who need to fish.), loss of stats (Steed shield comes with guaranteed crit chance, a useless stat for Invoker, compared to Akarat’s Awakening, which comes with guaranteed bonus block stat, a heavily desired stat for Invokers and one that cannot be rolled on shields), as well as the fact that you may not be able to keep 100% uptime up on Norvald’s Fervor (Unless you pick Lord Commander, which in turn means you are giving up a very valuable passive skill).

So, yea. Once you bring all that into the equation, Norvald’s isn’t going to be anywhere near the buff you thought it would be for I6. For top invokers who need to fish to push, Norvald may turn out to be inferior to the current build due to how much emphasis I6 places on increased attack speed and the need for Hamelinn. (Ok, there’s Orlash too, though idk how the best RGs will be now that you cap at 10 stacks)

At the moment, i don’t think so. But if you prove me wrong, ill accept it.

Well…so if you think for a minute, you know where that multiplier is coming from. I also metioned it above:

It’s a seperate x5 Multiplier which is pretty hard to beat. I admit i dont play much crusader, but i don’t have another Mainhand/Offhand-Combi in Mind that comes close to that.

The 13520 number already has the attack speed change in it, you don’t need to add that in. So, incorrect there.

In non-season, you would have to cube Akarat’s Awakening in order to make room for Norvald’s. You lose the seperate 1.5x multiplier to elites from Furnace, or whatever Mortal Drama would contribute to trash (I don’t know that number, so I’m going to base it solely off Furnace).

In addition, you go from 1.5 attacks per second to 1.15 attacks per second, or a rough 30% attack speed loss.
You also lose Celerity, which is an additional seperate 15% attack speed multiplier (As well as 15% CDR. Keep in mind that you need 100% uptime on both Akarat’s Champion AND the Norvald’s buff. Due to how Invoker is almost entirely single-target, you can’t rely on kills to reset Norvald’s, especially on RGs)

You also lose 30% bonus damage to Humans and Beasts - Keep in mind that all Goats count as beast, and 3 of the RGs are either Beasts or Humans, with a final note that Hamelin is one of the two best RGs for Invoker.

So, let’s go ahead and say that these 3 combined means that you lose half damage. Thus, Norvald’s is only a 200% damage increase over the Pig Sticker+AA+Furnace in cube that’s standard atm.

This doesn’t take into account Mortal Drama either. Keep in mind that Mortal Drama is a seperate 10x damage multiplier to Bombardment. As I6 100% NEEDS Akarat’s Awakening in order to have 100% uptime on Akarat’s Champion, if it turns out that you also need Mortal Drama in order to clear decently, then Norvald’s won’t even be used for I6.

So, yes. The buff to Norvald is a completely seperate matter from the gargantuan nerf to I6. I6 still needs significant buffs to make up for the loss of damage to I2, and saying that Norvald’s is a “band-aid” for it isn’t even accurate, and especially not to the point you think it is.


Just doublechecked, and you are right. Didn’t see that sopolite already used the AS - Buff.

Ok then it comes down to a

69% Buff when using Norvalds and a 47% nerf when not.

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I think your right. I just tested a few times and constantly getting on the horse is frustrating as you tend to lose your target and because you now lost flash, getting into position is a struggle. Overall the playstyle changes and is not fun. It ends up roughly same clear times because of the I6 nerf and inefficient elite kills. They need to either increase horse buff time to reduce need to use it so often or just increase the 67,500 to around 100,000 so that we can keep using the pigstick. Bottom line,. Norvalds might be buffing the numbers but it’s not reducing clear times as expected.

I never wanted Norvald in Invoker6 in the first place. Just wanted a buff to invoker6 and a thrash clear element (which we did in Mortal Drama and Belt of Throve).
Invoker6 is better than before, but nowhere near GoD DH.
A buff is needed in the set or to Mortal Drama and Belt of Throve, if Invoker should become a viable RGK or a fun alternative for a hole season.