- Hurt me More, Snake is the funnest one, but it’s not very descriptive. How about Zodiac WhirlRend?
Zodiac Rend is probable the best descriptor from your list.
Here’s another thing to consider: DDs will apply Ambo-Rend, but only within a certain distance from your character (i.e. DDs that hit a guy 50 yards away will not apply Rend). I tested this by WWing to spawn some DD’s, and watching them hit an enemy some distance away (no Rend), then WWing again to spawn more DDs, and chasing them to my target (not WWing), at which point the DDs do cause Rend on the enemy.
So: whatever the ICD on Ambo’s, I’m not sure if a separate one is applying for the hits of WW, and the hits of DD’s. If they are separate, then using a 2H weapon may not be costing you any damage due to lower Rend stacking, because you will still be stacking Rend 2x/second, despite falling well below 2 APS.
Needs testing.
2 Likes
Yep, time will tell.
I posted earlier than D3planner has my 2H ticking at 2.5 APS, my breakpoint is registering 1.6 APS. So it’s a bit confusing. But like you said, “Needs testing”.
Ok, I just tested, and I’m about 95% sure that WW and DDs are separately applying Rend, up to the cap of 2.
Tried it out with a 2H weapon, and with both WW and DDs doing the stacking, you should easily be able to stay at 2 Rend stacks using a 2H weapon.
3 Likes
Let’s take these two things together.
When I say it’s a “detonation,” it’s not truly a single burst of damage. It is, however, compressing 15 seconds worth of Rend ticks into 1 second. At the end of the 1 second (as per Ambo’s), all 15-seconds worth of Rend damage has been dealt. In other words, it’s a detonation, in a practical, if not the strictest, sense.
For more info on how Rend operates, check the FAQ in the OP for SVR’s test results. And I urge everyone to test it for themselves!
I believe SVR also confirmed it, though I can’t recall where. What this means, of course, is that attack speed isn’t modifying your total damage output via Rend. It still has an impact on Stricken stacks, but the amped up power of Rend makes this an RG shredder.
Yeah, I remember someone in the PTR (SVR or Justinfan) testing this. I tested it in PTR and got the same result as you. I want to stress that this isn’t make or break for the build since no more than 2 stacks of Rend can be applied with or without Ambo’s; whether you’re stacking Rends from WW, Dust Devils, or both, you get 2 stacks, and that’s it until they detonate.
On a different note, I don’t think Rends from DDs overwrite Rends from WW and vice versa, because my limited testing produced the same damage no matter how I applied it. I’m not sure if hard-cast Rends overwrite those applied from Ambos, or if that even matters considering the cap imposed by Lamentation, but several players–myself included–think there’s something going on with hard-cast Rends that isn’t AD-related. They seem to hit harder, or stack beyond Lamentation’s cap, or something else. I’m hoping to test when I get home, but I’m still working on getting software to record.
I believe that the unanswered question from the other thread is still unanswered, though, correct? Namely, does Ambo’s refresh the duration of rend to 1 second, replace old instances of Rend, or fail to apply Rend if 2 stacks are already present?
As I’ve tried, poorly, to explain, this distinction actually has a huge effect on dps. If Rend “detonates”, then you want to change your attack speed, if possible, to re-apply rend as soon as possible after that detonation.
If Ambo somehow refreshes the duration on Rend so that it continually ticks, then attack speed has literally zero effect on dps (other than stricken stacking).
They’re not refreshing. You can see this in action.
Have you put together the build and tried it yourself?
Yep, I just did a 120 with the still nerfed lamentation. (if data is still helpful, 24k str., IB, W6, all but one ancient, bad rolls from the old WW build, still have +WW on some things, etc.).
I actually am not sure how to test whether it’s refreshing - I don’t have any video capture stuff currently. It seems I’d need to WW for more than 1 tick, but less than 1 second, figure out where the last tick that happened was, then see if Rend fell off 1 second after the first tick, vs. 1 second after the last tick. And I just can’t do that without video capture.
If you’re referring to the fact that it doesn’t overwrite, I have read the thread and agree that it’s clear it’s not doing that (or the attacks that happen faster than ticks would lead to zero damage Rends).
Hello fellow barbarians! I’ve been reading a lot of stuff on this forum past few weeks, voting and cheering for barbs and lamentation and getting hyped for new WW/Rend build. I must admit, that this was probably the first time i’ve been so dedicatet to something related to D3. Thousand of posts read, hundered of likes given, and i became to like barb community very much. I can’t wait for friday season start. In meantime i tried to memorize 1-70 lvling guide and other helpfull tips here, but i still don’t know which variant of WW/Rend to farm. I’ve read “rend mechanics” , WW zodiac guide and all the comments, but still I’m no smarter than before, so I’d like to ask you, smarter and more profesional barbarians for help.
I was planning to go 6wastes BK pure rend build (no AD = no lag, +30% rend on items) or 5WW/2CC variant, but than somebody mentioned, that full AD build with manual rend cast on right CoE cycle is much stronger (but i expect lags in higher GR’s = not good for group play) .
What is your opinion on this?
Which way will you go in season?
1 Like
If you are just getting started into WW I would recommend a full wastes set as that will be easier to gear out initially and easier to play since you don’t need AD at all. I will personally be running full Wastes for both T16, Solo Speeds and Group Speeds with some slight gear changes between all of them.
1 Like
Thx Free…awesome as always with your kind assist.
Hey Broodax. After doing a little testing, I concluded that WW applies Rend very fast, 2 or more times per second, even when using a 2H weapon, and possibly even if your sheet APS were as low as 1.0 (you can see this post for a few details on the test). So, any “gap” between Rend falling off and being reapplied would be very small.
2 Likes
It does apply very fast, but since the duration is so short, the gap can actually be a large percentage of your total DoT uptime. If Rend falls off rather than getting refreshed, for instance (I’ll use real numbers this time in case it matters):
At 2.17 aps (Paragon, IB, Dual Wielding, no as or ias on gear), WW is at 18 frames per tick (using the decimal for frames here, not hundredths of a second):
0.0 - Rend Applied
0.18, 0.36, 0.54 - more ticks that might apply lamentation, ignoring that and just focusing on one instance of rend now
1.00 - Rend falls off
1.12 - Rend applied again after a 1/5 second gap.
Getting 1 AS roll on gear gives 2.27 aps and 17 frame WW ticks
WW ticks at 0, 0.17, 0.34, 0.51
Rend re-applies at 0.08. for a 2/15 second gap.
This is a DoT uptime increase of (1/(1+8/60)) / (1/(1+12/60)) = 5.88% - that should translate to a pure damage increase of that much.
Adding a second roll leaves only a 4 frame gap and gives you a 12.5% increase over no Attack Speed.
So, this is why I think the distinction between whether Rend is refreshed by Ambo/WW procs or Ambo/WW just ignores a mob that already has Rend, allowing the DoT to fall off, might be important (again, wish I could test this. I don’t know how without recording and watching frame by frame).
I say might because that 5.8-12.5% increase you could potentially get is likely less than what you give up in other rolls (for my character it’s less than everything other than pure strength). It might be worth sacrificing Vit on gloves or something for one roll, though.
Well, keep in mind that DDs also are applying Rend (within 9 yards of your character), and spawn at different frequencies than your WW ticks. For instance, with the aforementioned 2.17 aps, you have an 18 frame WW tick, but a 13 frame DD spawn.
So I guess, using your notation, it would be something like:
0.0 - Rend applied
0.13, 0.18, 0.26, 0.36, 0.39, 0.52, 0.54 - more ticks that can apply Rend
1.00 - Rend falls off
1.05 - Rend reapplied (by DD) after a 5 frame gap (1/12 of a second)
at 2.27 aps, you’d have a 17 frame WW tick, but still a 13 frame DD tick, so your Rend refresh point would actually be identical (1.05)
at 2.31 aps, you’d have a 17 frame ww, and a 12 frame DD. This would give you
0.0 - Rend applied
0.12, 0.17, 0.24, 0.34, 0.36, 0.48, 0.51, 1.00- Rends applied
1.00 - Rend falls off
1.08- Rend reapplied (by WW)
So if this was the case, assuming that DD at 1.00 was unable to reapply Rend, you’d actually do less damage at 2.31 aps than at 2.27. Of course, if Rend could be reapplied at 1.00, then a 12 frame DD at 2.31 aps would be by far the best way to do this. To get to this point, as you mentioned, you need 10% AS in Paragon plus 2 7% rolls on gear. You essentially get one for “free” from Zodiac, the other would cost you some significant Str on gloves or a weapon, I think.
Assuming WW and/or DD can’t proc Rend on a 1.00 count, I think the best you can reasonably do would be to reapply Rend at 1.02, with a 31 frame WW, which would only be possible using a 2H weapon with 1.00 base aps (like the Furnace), with 7% IAS, 10% AS in paragon, and one 7% roll on your gear (probably Zodiac), giving you 1.26 aps.
Dual wielding, I think the best you could do would be to reapply Rend at 1.03, which would be possible if you had a 9 frame DD (3.01 aps), a 7 frame DD (3.76 aps), or a 21 frame WW (1.82 aps).
7 and 9 frame DD would be hard to reach, and a 21 frame WW is impossible if using either IB or BK. And the best any of these could do would be to give you a 2 frame increase over 2.17 aps, which would give you 3.33% additional damage, equivalent to 650 Str if you have about 19.5k Str.
There might be some crazy way to refresh Rend at 1.01 if you have IAS on one weapon, but not the other, so that your WW and DD speed oscillates as you cycle between hands, but that makes my brain hurt, so I’m not going to think about it.
I guess there are a few points where you could experience a relatively major gain/loss with a small change. For instance, using IB, fully stacked, with no AS elsewhere, including paragon, would have you at 2.03 aps, refreshing Rend via DD at 1.10, whereas adding 10% AS in Paragon would get you to 2.17 aps, refreshing Rend via DD at 1.05, saving you 5 frames and adding 8.33% damage.
I think the safest play is just to max out Paragon AS, and then don’t bother with it elsewhere.
It would be interesting to know if Rend is indeed falling off, but I think the actual dps gain/loss from adjusting your aps, in most likely scenarios, is going to be pretty slim.
3 Likes
You’re totally right - DD likely shortens that gap (it does for sure, but it gets fuzzy with travel time). I was for some reason (foolishly) looking at just WW and not DD ticks. So yes, it would have an effect, but an extremely small one that is difficult to take advantage of.
DizzyRend, The New Libra Zodiac
Libra because the Season launches on the 22nd which is still technically Libra (barely)
There are some unanswered questions when it comes to Rend in the new build, but I think it’s clear that WW is, at present, applying Rends about as quickly as they can be applied, and that jacking up attack speed isn’t going to do us any good.
The big fish left to fry revolve around whether X or Y Rend overwrites the other, or whether hard-cast Rends have different interactions in and out of density. I’m working on some tests and hope to have some video evidence later this week. In the meantime, I gotta write quizzes for my students and catch up on reading!
For the record: Anyone who plays non-Season is welcome to add me in game: Free#1746
I’ll be farming Bounties until the new patch drops.
4 Likes
So, I gave it some thought, and I think the best way to test for the “fall-off” effect is this:
You use a 2H mace with 1.00 base APS. Ambo’s in the cube, no Lamentation.
No AS anywhere, including paragon. This gives you a 30 frame DD and a 40 frame WW tick.
0.0-Rend applied… Though, now that I think of it, what point is this, exactly? I guess the DD is spawning before the actual WW hit, and it’s this that applies Rend. Which means that the WW tick at “0.4” is actually occurring at “0.1”…
So:
0.0 - Rend applied (by DD)
0.1 (WW), 0.3 (DD), 0.5 (WW), 1.0 (DD)* - hits that could apply Rend
1.0 - Rend drops. The trial here splits here into “Case A” where Rend is reapplied by the DD hit with the *, above, at 1.0, and “Case B” where it can’t reapply at 1.0, and instead is reapplied at 1.3, by WW or DD (both should take place at 1.3)
“A”: continues to refresh Rend exactly every 1.0 second
“B”:
1.3 - Rend reapplied (by WW or DD) 30 lost frames
2.0 (DD), 2.1 (WW), 2.3 (DD) - hits that could apply Rend
2.3- Rend drops. Note that the DD at 2.3 can’t reset Rend in this scenario, since if it could, we’d be in “Case A”, where Rend can be reset at an even count.
2.5 - Rend reapplied (by WW) 20 lost frames
3.0 (DD), 3.3 (WW), 3.3 (DD) - hits that could apply Rend
3.5 - Rend drops
4.0 - Rend reapplied (by DD) 10 lost frames
4.1 (WW), 4.3 (DD), 4.5 (WW), 5.0 (DD) -hits that could apply Rend
5.0- Rend drops
5.3- Rend reapplied (by WW or DD) 30 lost frames
I believe that the cycle of “B” is essentially repeating, with 60 lost frames every 4 seconds. This should cost you a full 25% of your damage.
“A”, in comparison, should lose no frames at all, and suffer no damage loss. Because Rend deals the same damage on every cast, you can calculate out how much damage it should be doing over a certain period of time, if fall-off is not a factor.
For instance, you might calculate, based on your weapon damage, crit chance, crit damage, and strength, that Rend should deal 1 Billion damage per minute. Then you Whirlwind an enemy (I always use Manglemaw for testing) for a minute, and see how much damage you’ve done. Assuming you’ve got no buffs to WW going, the vast majority of your damage should be coming from Rend (since it is getting a 15x multiplier from Ambo’s)
So, in this example, if “A” is true, you should do slightly more than 1 Billion damage in one minute (the Rend damage, plus some minor WW damage).
If, on the other hand, “B” is true, you should only deal a little over 750 Million damage in that minute.
If you get “B”, you know fall-off is real. If you get “A”, there’s still more testing to do, since Rend getting refreshed exactly every second, and being continually refreshed by WW (aka, “fall-off” doesn’t exist) should produce the same results.
So, for “Case C”, you repeat as in the first set of trials, except now you put 1 point in Attack Speed in your paragon. This will give you 1.0001 aps, dropping your WW from 40 frames to 39, and your DD from 30 frames to 29.
So:
0.0- Rend applied, by DD… the WW tick at “0.39” is actually occurring at “0.09”.
0.09 (WW), 0.29 (DD), 0.48 (WW), 0.58 (DD) - hits that could apply Rend
1.0 - Rend drops
1.27- Rend reapplied (by either WW or DD, both of which happen at 1.27) 27 lost frames
1.56 (DD), 2.06 (WW), 2.25 (DD) - hits that could apply Rend
2.27 - Rend drops
2.45 - Rend reapplied (by WW) 18 lost frames
etc, etc… the point is not the exact amount of damage lost in this case, but rather the fact that by increasing our attack speed, even by an incredibly small degree, we have de-synced WW and Rend, and, if “fall-off” is real, we will lose a non-trivial amount of damage (considering that in less than 3 seconds we have already lost 45 frames, I would look for at least 15% damage loss compared to the calculated maximum).
So, do another test on your chosen enemy, and note the damage after a particular length of time. If the damage you deal in this case, “C”, is less than was dealt in “A”, then you know that fall-off is real. If the damage is nearly identical to “A”, then WW is probably refreshing Rend stacks, resetting the duration of each instance of Rend to the maximum (1 second) each time it hits.
Simple, right?
Edit: I ran a much quicker and less painful version of this trial. Since in “Case B” we should be losing as much as 30 frames (half a second) at a time, and in “Case C”, as much as 27, this should be evident from a simple visual inspection. I WWed a skeleton with a 1.00 aps mace with no bonus to aps, and then with 1 point of paragon in AS, and in neither case did I see the Rend icon drop at any point.
So, that’s not 100% conclusive, but I’m guessing that the duration of Rend instances is actually being refreshed with each WW/DD hit.
Now, what that means, will involve further testing. For instance, hard-cast Rend can proc AD… so if you hard-cast Rend in density, then start WWing, is the AD-dealing ability of those Rend instances preserved, and refreshed repeatedly? (Edit: no, it’s not. When you start WWing, your HC Rend is overwritten).
1 Like
Free, now that a fan favourite build (and certainly yours) is about to be top shot again, pls don’t forget about others that needs further buffs. I feel that, although Remorless have put IK HotA in a good position, it still needs further buffs, maybe to IK6 directly. It’s a newbie friendly build and lots of fun, I’d like to see it in the top 3 barb builds. You’re our voice here, so keep the good work
1 Like
The problem with buffing IK6 is charger build. Top clear NS was 135, so I guess a 3 gr buff to around 6000% won’t disturb the intraclass balance and will only benefit IK among the three HotA builds.
2 Likes