I Can’t Drive 5150?
Unfortunately I think we’re talking past eachother. I understand that it takes the original total damage which would have been done over 15 seconds, and does it all over 1 second. It makes it significantly more powerful like other DoT increasing items have for other classes/builds in the past.
However, both what I have described: 5 ticks every .2 seconds doing 15x damage, and what you have described: 1 tick (detonation) after 1 second doing 75x damage - they both do the same amount of increased damage over the same time period. Ambo’s only says it does it over 1 second. It doesn’t say it makes it tick less frequently or anything like that, so I’m wondering if it was actually tested and shown to be one big giant “detonation” or if that is somehow being assumed.
Free,
I think the use of “detonate” is confusing people. Ambo-Rend doesn’t deal all its damage at the end of a 1 second period, it ticks multiple times over that second (I just tested this). It’s the full 15 second damage (assuming you’re using Wastes), compressed into 1 second, dealt in a number of ticks.
JustinFan says that increasing your Attack Speed increases tick frequency, but the damage dealt is the same (i.e. each tick will presumably do less damage). This, I have not confirmed, but JF tends to be right about this stuff.
This is also confusing. Adding a 3rd hit/tick with WW doesn’t speed up the damage dealing process of Rend, it still always occurs over 1 second (just tested).
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Pretty sure Rob and sVr tested this when the ptr first dropped and confirmed its still the same damage regardless of how many ticks occur over that 1 second. It still equals the same amount of damage.
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I’m just glad that it should be applying two stacks. Thx for the response. Can’t wait for the update so I can start testing.
Right. I was just saying that I haven’t personally verified that, whereas the other stuff I was commenting on I just tested.
The thread in question with all that info is here: Rend mechanics 2.6.7 - #3 by sVr-21743
Posts #'s 3-40 have the most relevant info.
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- Hurt me More, Snake is the funnest one, but it’s not very descriptive. How about Zodiac WhirlRend?
Zodiac Rend is probable the best descriptor from your list.
Here’s another thing to consider: DDs will apply Ambo-Rend, but only within a certain distance from your character (i.e. DDs that hit a guy 50 yards away will not apply Rend). I tested this by WWing to spawn some DD’s, and watching them hit an enemy some distance away (no Rend), then WWing again to spawn more DDs, and chasing them to my target (not WWing), at which point the DDs do cause Rend on the enemy.
So: whatever the ICD on Ambo’s, I’m not sure if a separate one is applying for the hits of WW, and the hits of DD’s. If they are separate, then using a 2H weapon may not be costing you any damage due to lower Rend stacking, because you will still be stacking Rend 2x/second, despite falling well below 2 APS.
Needs testing.
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Yep, time will tell.
I posted earlier than D3planner has my 2H ticking at 2.5 APS, my breakpoint is registering 1.6 APS. So it’s a bit confusing. But like you said, “Needs testing”.
Ok, I just tested, and I’m about 95% sure that WW and DDs are separately applying Rend, up to the cap of 2.
Tried it out with a 2H weapon, and with both WW and DDs doing the stacking, you should easily be able to stay at 2 Rend stacks using a 2H weapon.
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Let’s take these two things together.
When I say it’s a “detonation,” it’s not truly a single burst of damage. It is, however, compressing 15 seconds worth of Rend ticks into 1 second. At the end of the 1 second (as per Ambo’s), all 15-seconds worth of Rend damage has been dealt. In other words, it’s a detonation, in a practical, if not the strictest, sense.
For more info on how Rend operates, check the FAQ in the OP for SVR’s test results. And I urge everyone to test it for themselves!
I believe SVR also confirmed it, though I can’t recall where. What this means, of course, is that attack speed isn’t modifying your total damage output via Rend. It still has an impact on Stricken stacks, but the amped up power of Rend makes this an RG shredder.
Yeah, I remember someone in the PTR (SVR or Justinfan) testing this. I tested it in PTR and got the same result as you. I want to stress that this isn’t make or break for the build since no more than 2 stacks of Rend can be applied with or without Ambo’s; whether you’re stacking Rends from WW, Dust Devils, or both, you get 2 stacks, and that’s it until they detonate.
On a different note, I don’t think Rends from DDs overwrite Rends from WW and vice versa, because my limited testing produced the same damage no matter how I applied it. I’m not sure if hard-cast Rends overwrite those applied from Ambos, or if that even matters considering the cap imposed by Lamentation, but several players–myself included–think there’s something going on with hard-cast Rends that isn’t AD-related. They seem to hit harder, or stack beyond Lamentation’s cap, or something else. I’m hoping to test when I get home, but I’m still working on getting software to record.
I believe that the unanswered question from the other thread is still unanswered, though, correct? Namely, does Ambo’s refresh the duration of rend to 1 second, replace old instances of Rend, or fail to apply Rend if 2 stacks are already present?
As I’ve tried, poorly, to explain, this distinction actually has a huge effect on dps. If Rend “detonates”, then you want to change your attack speed, if possible, to re-apply rend as soon as possible after that detonation.
If Ambo somehow refreshes the duration on Rend so that it continually ticks, then attack speed has literally zero effect on dps (other than stricken stacking).
They’re not refreshing. You can see this in action.
Have you put together the build and tried it yourself?
Yep, I just did a 120 with the still nerfed lamentation. (if data is still helpful, 24k str., IB, W6, all but one ancient, bad rolls from the old WW build, still have +WW on some things, etc.).
I actually am not sure how to test whether it’s refreshing - I don’t have any video capture stuff currently. It seems I’d need to WW for more than 1 tick, but less than 1 second, figure out where the last tick that happened was, then see if Rend fell off 1 second after the first tick, vs. 1 second after the last tick. And I just can’t do that without video capture.
If you’re referring to the fact that it doesn’t overwrite, I have read the thread and agree that it’s clear it’s not doing that (or the attacks that happen faster than ticks would lead to zero damage Rends).
Hello fellow barbarians! I’ve been reading a lot of stuff on this forum past few weeks, voting and cheering for barbs and lamentation and getting hyped for new WW/Rend build. I must admit, that this was probably the first time i’ve been so dedicatet to something related to D3. Thousand of posts read, hundered of likes given, and i became to like barb community very much. I can’t wait for friday season start. In meantime i tried to memorize 1-70 lvling guide and other helpfull tips here, but i still don’t know which variant of WW/Rend to farm. I’ve read “rend mechanics” , WW zodiac guide and all the comments, but still I’m no smarter than before, so I’d like to ask you, smarter and more profesional barbarians for help.
I was planning to go 6wastes BK pure rend build (no AD = no lag, +30% rend on items) or 5WW/2CC variant, but than somebody mentioned, that full AD build with manual rend cast on right CoE cycle is much stronger (but i expect lags in higher GR’s = not good for group play) .
What is your opinion on this?
Which way will you go in season?
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If you are just getting started into WW I would recommend a full wastes set as that will be easier to gear out initially and easier to play since you don’t need AD at all. I will personally be running full Wastes for both T16, Solo Speeds and Group Speeds with some slight gear changes between all of them.
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Thx Free…awesome as always with your kind assist.
Hey Broodax. After doing a little testing, I concluded that WW applies Rend very fast, 2 or more times per second, even when using a 2H weapon, and possibly even if your sheet APS were as low as 1.0 (you can see this post for a few details on the test). So, any “gap” between Rend falling off and being reapplied would be very small.
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It does apply very fast, but since the duration is so short, the gap can actually be a large percentage of your total DoT uptime. If Rend falls off rather than getting refreshed, for instance (I’ll use real numbers this time in case it matters):
At 2.17 aps (Paragon, IB, Dual Wielding, no as or ias on gear), WW is at 18 frames per tick (using the decimal for frames here, not hundredths of a second):
0.0 - Rend Applied
0.18, 0.36, 0.54 - more ticks that might apply lamentation, ignoring that and just focusing on one instance of rend now
1.00 - Rend falls off
1.12 - Rend applied again after a 1/5 second gap.
Getting 1 AS roll on gear gives 2.27 aps and 17 frame WW ticks
WW ticks at 0, 0.17, 0.34, 0.51
Rend re-applies at 0.08. for a 2/15 second gap.
This is a DoT uptime increase of (1/(1+8/60)) / (1/(1+12/60)) = 5.88% - that should translate to a pure damage increase of that much.
Adding a second roll leaves only a 4 frame gap and gives you a 12.5% increase over no Attack Speed.
So, this is why I think the distinction between whether Rend is refreshed by Ambo/WW procs or Ambo/WW just ignores a mob that already has Rend, allowing the DoT to fall off, might be important (again, wish I could test this. I don’t know how without recording and watching frame by frame).
I say might because that 5.8-12.5% increase you could potentially get is likely less than what you give up in other rolls (for my character it’s less than everything other than pure strength). It might be worth sacrificing Vit on gloves or something for one roll, though.
Well, keep in mind that DDs also are applying Rend (within 9 yards of your character), and spawn at different frequencies than your WW ticks. For instance, with the aforementioned 2.17 aps, you have an 18 frame WW tick, but a 13 frame DD spawn.
So I guess, using your notation, it would be something like:
0.0 - Rend applied
0.13, 0.18, 0.26, 0.36, 0.39, 0.52, 0.54 - more ticks that can apply Rend
1.00 - Rend falls off
1.05 - Rend reapplied (by DD) after a 5 frame gap (1/12 of a second)
at 2.27 aps, you’d have a 17 frame WW tick, but still a 13 frame DD tick, so your Rend refresh point would actually be identical (1.05)
at 2.31 aps, you’d have a 17 frame ww, and a 12 frame DD. This would give you
0.0 - Rend applied
0.12, 0.17, 0.24, 0.34, 0.36, 0.48, 0.51, 1.00- Rends applied
1.00 - Rend falls off
1.08- Rend reapplied (by WW)
So if this was the case, assuming that DD at 1.00 was unable to reapply Rend, you’d actually do less damage at 2.31 aps than at 2.27. Of course, if Rend could be reapplied at 1.00, then a 12 frame DD at 2.31 aps would be by far the best way to do this. To get to this point, as you mentioned, you need 10% AS in Paragon plus 2 7% rolls on gear. You essentially get one for “free” from Zodiac, the other would cost you some significant Str on gloves or a weapon, I think.
Assuming WW and/or DD can’t proc Rend on a 1.00 count, I think the best you can reasonably do would be to reapply Rend at 1.02, with a 31 frame WW, which would only be possible using a 2H weapon with 1.00 base aps (like the Furnace), with 7% IAS, 10% AS in paragon, and one 7% roll on your gear (probably Zodiac), giving you 1.26 aps.
Dual wielding, I think the best you could do would be to reapply Rend at 1.03, which would be possible if you had a 9 frame DD (3.01 aps), a 7 frame DD (3.76 aps), or a 21 frame WW (1.82 aps).
7 and 9 frame DD would be hard to reach, and a 21 frame WW is impossible if using either IB or BK. And the best any of these could do would be to give you a 2 frame increase over 2.17 aps, which would give you 3.33% additional damage, equivalent to 650 Str if you have about 19.5k Str.
There might be some crazy way to refresh Rend at 1.01 if you have IAS on one weapon, but not the other, so that your WW and DD speed oscillates as you cycle between hands, but that makes my brain hurt, so I’m not going to think about it.
I guess there are a few points where you could experience a relatively major gain/loss with a small change. For instance, using IB, fully stacked, with no AS elsewhere, including paragon, would have you at 2.03 aps, refreshing Rend via DD at 1.10, whereas adding 10% AS in Paragon would get you to 2.17 aps, refreshing Rend via DD at 1.05, saving you 5 frames and adding 8.33% damage.
I think the safest play is just to max out Paragon AS, and then don’t bother with it elsewhere.
It would be interesting to know if Rend is indeed falling off, but I think the actual dps gain/loss from adjusting your aps, in most likely scenarios, is going to be pretty slim.
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