Fire Birds kind of underwhelming

So I tried both FB6 and T6/F4… both are really awkward to play. Trying to keep up disintegrate stacks and switching between spells to maintain buffs really isn’t my cup of tea.

I would move the 4pc damage bonus of FB to 6pc and let disintegrate gain the combustion dmg buff. It makes no sense to channel this one skill to then be able to cast your real damage dealer. Just let disintegrate be the main damage dealer with your other castable spell be a burst damage bonus.

In fact, you could make it so “your fire skills other than disintegrate deal an extra X% damage. costs Y stacks of combustion”. Done. Now you have channeling with burst. Super smooth and fast gameplay.

This alone would make FB so much smoother. Also delete arcane torrent because that skill is incredibly unfun. >_>

I also thought that a burn themed set would be cool, but instead of focusing too much on making enemies burn, it would make you burn, like with a Fire Aura around you that damage enemies every second, causes them to take more damage from your fire spells, giving you xx% reduced damage taken and with the 6piece set it would also increase the damage of your fire skills.

It would stack let’s say 10 times, and every time you cast a fire skill the Fire Aura would get larger and more intense, increasing all of its effects.

Imgur

^^like this, just adjust the numbers

Eh. The majority of the time needs to be spent casting other spells. They seem to want us to spend the majority of the time casting Disintegrate. That doesn’t work. If they want that to happen, then they need a new set based around Disintegrate/channeled spells only.

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Etched Sigil would have been what this FB iteration needs as a sidekick - but not this current, pisspoor ripoff, I mean the real thing. Plus autocasts being able to proc the six piece.

Honestly, if they’re so dead set on us needing to use a second skill on top of a channeling skill (disintegrate in this case), then they should really consider reverting the etched sigil change. If not, then they should change firebird, so we’re not alternating constantly and rapidly between multiple different offenseive skills to either deal damage and/or sustain stacks.

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Firebirds just needs to rework its 6-piece bonus. Remove that “fire spell other than disintegrate” crap and you have a good, solid set. Its the stand-still-and-melt set.

I think my idea of disintegrate with burst works plenty fine and should make everyone happy.

Not entirely sure what point you’re making tbh…

I wasn’t expecting to give feedback this PTR, but the changes to Firebird are so good in comparison to the trainwreck that we had last patch, I have to say something of praise.

Not as much mechanics testing from me, but I have solid hours playtesting the GR speed and push Firebird 6pc Combustion builds. Granted these are still channeling builds, being with Deathwish and no viable non channeling, non archon alternatives in play. However I feel this is okay. At least it is a fun channeling build!

In particular, this push build excites me (~GR137+@2kp capable):

  • https://maxroll.gg/d3planner/726387147

EDIT: Credit and thanks to [@LexyuTV] for sharing some of the specifics of his push build. I’ve adapted it slightly. EDIT2: …and just realized EF stacks are additive with gear, not weapon. Will possibly adjust attack speed for this build a little.

also, the Solo GR Speed build (~GR117+@2kp, 3-5m clears):

  • https://maxroll.gg/d3planner/418338540

Echoing Fury feels so good in combination with Zodiac, EB. The higher attack speeds let you proc zodiac more often, encouraging you to retain the bonus by continually killing enemies. This is one of the difficult, but fun challenges of the build.

Higher AS is necessary to push the limits of this proc based build. The attack speed is multi purpose:

  • Faster application of Flame Ward Combustion damage instances.
  • Generate combustion stacks quicker.
  • Faster zodiac procs.
  • Faster stricken stacking.
  • Faster shielding generation (for defense).

I really enjoy the give and take of the Combustion stacks. It introduces a game mechanic that the player not only has to maintain, but moreso actively decide whether they want to degen stacks to burst enemies down, or stack up to retain damage and AoE potential.

The fact that FB6 consumes combustion stacks also creates a damage arc that is not linear, but in fact, cyclical, similar to Vyr6, except the player has much more control over where their stack count is, and how often (the frequency) at which it cycles. Cyclical in nature, but also variable in nature.

I like the pacing at which stacks build up and degen. No changes needed there.

Surprisingly, the Igniting enemies is also engaging. New summons, Illusions, fresh trash all need to be newly ignited to deal damage to them. Applying Ignite to these new enemies via Disintegrate channel feels better because it is dual purpose: also regenerates combustion stacks. The ignite mechanic 4pc toughness is present but not overbearing like it was on the previous version of Firebirds. It’s super smoothe, love it!

Love the mobility! Glad to see you’ve listened, and baked in some mobility with Firebird’s. I feel the current implementation of reducing Teleport cooldown based on stacks is good. It really gives Firebirds the ability to move through the rift quickly, but at the cost of maintaining the AP/s of Disintegrate. This creates diversity in builds somewhat, because for GR speeds you want more consistent resource (Hergbrash+EW), whereas in GR push, you can give up some resource, since you’ll be rift fishing anyways (and go Capt. Crimsons+CoE).

As to mobility in general: in the future I’d really appreciate base reduced cooldown for teleport, reduced GCD for teleport, or inclusion of other mobility mechanics in sets.

In particular, I feel Movespeed would be a great addition to the wizard’s toolkit. Enhancing other sets to add movespeed mechanics or adding more movespeed to Illusionist, Scramble, Sleek shell, or other items, etc. would be great.


Now for the bad:
FB4 multiplier at a minimum has to move to the 6pc. I would suggest however, as some fellow wizard players also have, to leave some small level of multiplier on the 4pc. This will keep the freedom of going Tal6/FB4 an option, while limiting those build’s power to less than pure FB6’ power.

As to the builds’ overall power, thus far I’ve cleared GR137 with FB6 in ~12.5m time @ ~25k INT, 3.8kp, and will probably clear at least GR138-139 with more rift fishing (echoing fury feeds off of small mob types and RGs with adds; getting these consistently takes a lot of luck).

It’s definitely a very affix hungry build, as it needs quite a lot of AS,CDR, and RCR. This means it requires higher paragon to typically function or excel at the highest level.

It could go either way. Currently I feel compared to other Wizard builds, the damage of FB6 is in a good spot. However, if you compare to last season’s Twister Wizard, or builds of other classes, especially Necro, Crusader, and Demon Hunter, then I’d say FB needs an increase from 4000% to 5000% combined multiplier (25% increase).

In particular I am sad that we won’t be able to play Twister this upcoming season to it’s fullest potential, because we are losing the cube slot, which it needed for multipliers. Granted, we get a free Flavor of TIme, which offsets this loss some, but LoD Twister will still be losing a full ~6GR levels come next season.

As other testers have commented, many skills don’t proc the FB6 bonus as consistently. I suggest looking into these skills that are not working as readily to proc the FB6 damage instance, and see if anything can be done to increase their proc chance or ability. While at the moment this has worked out well, since channeling is still king, in the future it might not be, and the ability of these other skills to proc FB6 will be of greater importance.

In particular, I was hoping to play around with Hydra proccing the firebirds combustion. Though, as noted above, many other players want support for signature play, FB archon, etc.


To conclude: for a first iteration, I am very happy with the utility, function, mobility, and interest the new FB6 provides. At a minimum, the multiplier needs to move to the 6pc, and I’d suggest taking a look at the power level to assess, as well as look into supporting some skills that appear to not be proccing as consistently in the future.

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Thank you for your great review @Cratic <3.

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Hey Cratic, a few questions / comments:

You don’t actually spend combustion stacks, right? I think they just decay over time when you’re not casting Disintegrate.

What’s Zodiac for? You probably have enough CDR to have full uptime on Spellsteal / OoID EBs, and for damage, I think EB damage is lowered by proc coefficient… so most of your damage is coming from Flame Ward, not EB.

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I don’t think proc coefficients matter for Firebird. It’s the same damage regardless of the source. For my GR141 clear, I spammed EB with zodiac for about 6 extra procs per second, which made up half of my damage. This video has the skill comparison: Patch 2.7.0 Firebird Rework Testing - Mechanics Explained and Bugs(?) Found - YouTube

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That’s an excellent summary video.

Interesting that proc coefficients turn out not to be the culprit of the spotty damage from various skills, there was a fair amount of speculation about that around here.

Question: have you confirmed that the FB6 effect isn’t proccing AD? I would not expect it to, since it’s a proc itself, but Blizzard sometimes carves out exceptions to its rules.

Hi Rage! :rage: :smile:

Correct, you are spending time, stack degen is automatic; just retested to confirm no additional stacks are being consumed when hitting targets with combust.

This is what led to my misconception. Forgive my inaccuracy, I will edit my post above. Again, I had skipped a lot of the mechanics testing.


Just now tested on PTR though:

  • Stack degen is about 5 stacks per second. Appears to be consistent regardless of level of attack speed.
  • Stack generation (with Disintegrate cast) in town at 2.05 APS: ~7 stacks/s.
  • Stack generation (with Disintegrate cast) in GR with (5xEF stacks) at 3.18 APS: ~10 stacks/s.

Stack gain is scaling with attack speed. We gain stacks at a quicker pace with higher AS. Values above match the breakpoints of 9 FPA (6.67 Ticks/s) and 6 FPA (10 Ticks/s) respectively.


Dur: Just realized EF is additive with gear now, not weapon. Oof! My push build is slighty misconfigured / could still use optimizations then.

Higher Attack speed will actually proc zodiac quicker, meaning you get more 1s cd reductions in a shorter period of time. This lets you spam EB all the more readily and put out significantly more damage.

With EB being an 12 yd AoE, this helps kill off trash even more readily, since our other main damage dealer, AT:FW doesn’t have as large of a radius. EB also aligns well with the Trapped/Audacity multipliers, a nice perk.

Zodiac also tends to help with getting Spellsteal off cooldown and with Mobility, if teleport is not instant cast due to low Combustion stack count.

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Yes, I tested area damage with Firebird, and it doesn’t work.

https://clips.twitch.tv/JazzyEnjoyableShrewCoolStoryBob-NEYLYblLU7T4ljyu

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Got it. My earlier question was actually based off my mistaken impression that EB had turned out to have its FB6 damage reduced by proc coefficient, which LexyuTV has let me know is not the case.

Funnily enough, before the patch dropped I had suggested a setup that dealt basically all its damage via EB, using Zodiac for quick cooldown. But, when it turned out the extra EBs from Woh weren’t doing anything I figured that was a bust.

Guess this is what I get for not testing any of this stuff myself!

Awesome, thanks for the heads up!

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looking through this thread I see a lot of people suggesting changes that are almost totally different from the original 2.7.0 version

here are my suggestions that are closer to the source

  • Firebird’s Finery 2-Piece Set: When you die, a meteor falls from the sky and revives you. Disintegrate Ignites enemies, causing them to take 3000% weapon damage per second until they die.
  • Firebird’s Finery 4-Piece Set: You gain 80% damage reduction for 20 seconds when Ignite is applied to a target. Casting Disintegrate adds Combustion stacks that reduce the cooldown of Teleport by 2% per stack. Stacks up to 50 times.
  • Firebird’s Finery 6-Piece Set: Your fire damage is increased by XX00% per Combustion stacks.

Yeah I saw that too when playtesting Woh, it really didn’t do anything. But I could definitely feel EB Chain reaction doing damage, just hadn’t considered Zodiac prior to use with high AS. Very specific scenario that just makes it work really well. Glad we’re starting to figure out what works.

The more mechanics testing we share the more we’ll be able to learn. Thanks for the testing video, Lexyu!

Yeah they changed that silently a couple patches ago. Messed me up when I first noticed it too.

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Yeah, that’s probably my fault. I suggested it as a possible mechanism when people were noticing certain skills with low proc coefficients weren’t proccing FB6 very effectively, but I didn’t test it. Haven’t had much time to test stuff this PTR (and to be honest, haven’t been playing much D3 at all).

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To Lexyu (or any other high end PTR FB6 Wizard pushers),

On a good rift on the higher end of a push, how many Spellsteal stacks do you typically have, on average?

With my Echoing Fury variation, I’m realizing that Gogok may be the better play than Taeguk on these upper end pushes, simply because Taeguk is additive, and we can go from 6 FPA (10 Ticks/s) to 5 FPA (12 Ticks/s) with Gogok, a contribution of 20% dps:

  • 6 / 5 = 1.2 = 20% dps increase from AS BP adjustment.

Gogok would also allow us to swap out of Enchantress’ CDR, or conversely, give our EB more CDR to work with (not sure which is preferred at this point, but based on the Elemental%:

  • 1.5 / 1.4 = 1.0714 = ~7.1% dps increase from Elemental%.
  • 1.071 * 1.2 = ~1.286 = ~28.6%

Total estimated DPS increase from the above: ~28.6%.

Breakeven for 28.6% DPS contribution of a level 140 Taeguk vs Gogok is about 23 Spellsteal stacks. Higher than this, Gogok wins out.

Gogok would also give higher average toughness and is easier to keep up than Taeguk is.

The higher AS would also give more benefits to shielding, stricken stacking, zodiac proc rate, combustion generation.

EDIT: or maybe this is all pointless calculation, as Pain Enhancer would win out anyways at 30+ stacks, and we’d still drop Taeguk, but we’d drop it for PE (Trapped / PE / Stricken), and then go Furnace as you have done.

EDIT2: Then again, PE is Dynamic. As you kill off the Trash you’d lose Breakpoints some. Would probably need significantly more than 30 enemies to sustain 5 FPA (12 Ticks / s).

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