Early D4 Reasoning is Worrying - You Cannot Control Infinite Systems

Of course they should be, and it makes me doubt the competence of the Lead System Designer they hired (who also couldn’t even tell Rhykker the spec of the machines running the D4 demo at blizzcon).

Concerns only people pushing for leaderboards, and if they find it important, let them have their fun.
I find it enough to push a build until it stagnates, and then switch to something else. Paragon is a nice extra, but not defining. It quickly reaches saturation as well unless you are determined to play v24/7.

It actually concerns everyone.

Show me a perfect item in D3 on a Paragon 1,000 account who wants to deal damage and I’ll explain why the item is completely irrelevant competitively until that account grinds out 4,000 more paragon. The more paragon they grind the better.

Because it’s literally infinite and overshadows any Statistic devs put on gear. Not even %based damage rolls on gear overcome thousands of Paragon in D3.

It’s just poor design.

And if people argue that their plan in D4 is to have this “infinite system” provide little to no power increase when you really grind high, then why have it in the first place?

It’s a band-aid system designed to artificially extend the game’s life because D3 devs knew D3 had no meat. And still doesn’t.


I strongly believe that StuRedMan is Jay Wilson himself…


First of all, who told you such information would be disclosed to you ever?
Secondly, it is still several years before release and such systems would naturally be in a liquid, work-in-progress state.

You go by a blog post to write a whole page about your concerns, which are at best completely and utterly baseless. It just “seems” to you that so and so, without any facts to support or deny your worries.

WHY did you get it into your head that you as a consumer are entitled for any “answers” at all? Especially before release?
You are entitled to nothing. You can expect some marketing material before release, but thats it.
Let me be blunt. The developer doesn’t answer to you, doesn’t hold any responsibility to you, and strictly speaking doesnt need you personally. They make a product, and do it in such a way that a lot of people buy it - as many as possible. Notice - in this equation there is little room for your personal opinion or that of “true” diablo fans.
They dont owe you ANYTHING, least of all - answersband information.

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Get rid of this infinite expsystem. Design a proper endgame and watch how nobody will miss it. I have yet to see PoE players call for an endless expgrind. I don’t recall ever wanting one in D2.

It’s in here because D3 devs are LAZY and took the easy hamsterwheel approach.
Infinite exp does not encourage people to play, it does the opposite.

Look, your arguement is not unique and you are not enlightening anyone. Even a 5 year old knows what you just wrote. The point here is that Blizzard have stated they want to keep us in the loop for D4 development, and they want feedback. As such it is not unreasonable to expect more clarity from them so that we can give them proper feedback.


Blizzard did.

They’re free to not disclose anything if they want. I’m free to think what I want and not buy the game.


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I’m a ROS fan not a vanilla fan, so maybe Josh Mosqueira?

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Look, guys, I hate to break it to you…
But this doesn’t mean in-depth open discussion of their systems every month.

You were shown a demo less than a month ago. There is PLENTY of information for you there. That you are already bored with it and want more - is your own problem.

Let’s get this straight. An “ongoing discussion” so far from release pretty much means that they’ll listen to your whining on the forums and address SOME of it on the next Blizzcon, or in some blog post once every 6 months or so.

It may be easy for you to write your “wannas” on the forum and deem it feedback, but it is NOT easy for a developer to make a good decision in 3 weeks based on the disjointed and conflicting feedback that people give them. It’s simply not how developement WORKS.

And yeah, you state that every 5-year-old understands the things I’m writing about, but YOU clearly don’t. An open discussion and “keeping you in the loop” doesn’t mean there will be a dev update every 2 weeks with a complete report on their mechanics and decisions, with full justifications and such.
You will be lucky if they mention your concerns on the next Blizzcon.

I wanted to fight him with his own weapons. :stuck_out_tongue:

Pointing out the massive (and proven) flaws of an infinite system such as what they implemented in Diablo III is not a “wanna” or a petty demand.

I’m not asking for them to implement your favorite anime Samurai princess character as a playable class here. This is not a “Wanna”.

Blizzard’s free to ignore this post if they want. I’m free to discuss their product and what I think about it, also free to not buy it or explain to my friends why they should stay away from it. Free market right?

If you are in full agreement with what they are doing and you love what they’re showing you then carry on. But I disagree with that assessment.


They may be massive flaws to you. And they may be all but “prooved” as flaws to you.
But numbers say otherwise.

Numbers say that Diablo 3 was more sucessful than Diablo 2.
Numbers say that there are more players playing Diablo 3 today, 8 years since release - then there were persistent D2 players 8 years after its own release.
Numbers say that these “flawed” infinite systems WORK. And are liked by many people.

Your personal opinion doesn’t matter AT ALL. It doesn’t even matter is it’s CORRECT.
The only thing that matters is how the general ignorant public likes or dislikes the system.

The system may be flawed a hundred times over, but if people are still spending their time on it - this means it does something correct. Or didn’t you know? People like huge pointless flawed systems that give them something to sink their time into.

This argument from 2012 is pretty old, and wrong. Diablo 3 was a very highly anticipated title with a decade of anticipation and good-will behind it, from so many positive memories from Diablo II.

I do not have positive memories from Diablo 3 and D4 is not a day-1 purchase for me like D3 was. That’s why a bad product can ruin a brand name. There’s many, many people who bought Diablo 3 on faith alone that got burned and are not planning to pre-purchase or even day1- purchase D4.

D3 did so well because people had good will coming in from Diablo 2. That and years of marketing from a much bigger Blizzard corporation compared to what they were during the D2 era.


Of course I am just one person, and who cares about the consumer right?


If you don’t like it - don’t buy it.
It’s that simple.

Blizzard doesn’t care for you as a consumer personally. All they care about is a consumer MARKET. If they have a choice of making a “true to the roots” Diablo and sell it to millions, or make an improved Diablo 3 and invike your rage - but sell it to tens of millions… They will choose the latter.
That’s how market works.

That’s fine.

My point about infinite systems still stands.

Don’t sweat it. Them providing updates every two weeks didn’t cross my mind. They did mention quarterly updates though, so might hold them to that.

You’re painting an extreme scenario for no reason.

And what numbers are you referring to? Care to give a source? I mean, not that they matter because anybody with half a brain knows the market is far bigger today than 20 years ago. As such comparing raw numbers like that is pointless, but I guess you don’t know better.


Yeah, you know, you are right.
Those Switch players really liked playing Diablo 2 on their portable console, so when Diablo 3 was ported to it all of them thought - hey! That’s a great series! I remember it, I bet the 3rd part is just as good as the second!

Your argument makes sense only for sales pre-release and in the first month of release.

After that, EVERYONE and their grandmother who had ANY interest in Diablo series at all knew how it differed from Diablo 2.
Every Diablo 2 fan knew that Diablo 3 was a very different game. EVERYONE.

And then it kept selling, and selling more, and is selling well to this day.
CLEARLY because of the goodwill from Diablo 2 era.
Not, like, because it has near perfect scores on pretty much every metrics site, and offers hundreds of hours of gameplay even to the most casual of players.

Care to post some numbers? The gaming market is magnitudes larger today than it was around D2’s release. D3 had to sell more just by virtue of markets.

Do you think D4 will shatter sales records like D3 did? I don’t.

But at any rate, I don’t actually care about sales numbers, only about how good the systems are.

Who cares if it sells 40 million copies if the systems suck?

D3 had all these sales yet it’s still plagued by issues.


Fine. So be it.

Does it change the fact that there’s still more Diablo 3 fans today, then there are Diablo 2 fans, again, today?
The difference is orders of magnitude.

Even if Diablo 2 was, as you suggest it, bigger game for its time - that doesn’t matter anymore. What matters is that catering to Diablo 3 playerbase is much more profitable than catering to a dwindling number of Diablo 2 fans, most of whom grew adult, had family, and aren’t interested in gaming anymore.

If anything, your distaste for Diablo 3 only proves my point. Your individual opinion as a consumer doesn’t matter. It is still one of the most successful games of all times.

And what does your sudden aptitude for seeing future has to do with reality of this dicussion?

YOUR definition of good. Not quite the developer definition of good.

See, here lies an intrinsic problem to your opinion. You don’t see a larger picture.
YOUR definition of good is based on how well YOU like something.
But the DEVELOPER definition of good is based on how many OTHER PEOPLE likes something. Be they filthy casuals, hardcore fans of the series, neckbeards with bear-belly or housewives.
Developer still has his own tastes. But they discard them in favor of making a better game that more people can enjoy.

Yes obviously my definition of good, which is why I made this topic, because it’s related to my opinion and my decision to buy or not buy.

I don’t care if developer X likes infinite paragons man, Blizzard’s sales and their developer’s personal opinions views don’t impact my choice to not purchase, but what makes it into their product will.

You’re just re-stating obvious things at this point then acting outraged when people use Blizzard’s forums.

Still waiting on those numbers. Plenty of Diablo 2 fans play Diablo 3 and plenty of Diablo 2 fans also quit Diablo 3.

Google them.
They have been given like a hundred times on these very forums to people like yourself - and yet you keep requesting every time you disagree with something.