Dumb question about stat priority

Demon Hunter
21

I understand all that, but I’m not talking about sheet CDR/RCR in this case, I’m talking about the actual values on my Yang’s. I can roll 10% CDR, which is affected by DR and reflected as such on the character sheet, but on the Yang’s itself it still lists a 10% CDR roll as a stat just like any other item that can roll CDR. If I roll RCR, it only adds 5% to the actual Yang’s (as well as being affected by DR on the sheet) and combines it with the existing 50% affix, making it look like the item rolled with one less affix. It just shows one 55% RCR affix instead of separate 50% and 5% affixes (the latter of which I assumed should be able to be 10%).

On most other items the possible CDR and RCR rolls seem to be the same as each other (8% possible for each on gloves for example), so I’m just surprised that I can roll 10% CDR on this bow but only 5% RCR, and the way the RCR roll is combined with the existing affix instead of listed separately seems odd. Maybe I’ve just never rolled for a stat on an item that comes with a same-stat affix before (are there any others? I don’t recall any off the top of my head but I don’t play every class/build) but I don’t recall ever seeing the effect of DR already present on an affix roll on an item itself in addition to on the sheet.

Basically I’m just wondering if Yang’s is unique in this regard, and if so, why?

22

The special roll of 50% RCR on Yang and the usual roll of 10% are not added together, but they work as 2 separate rolls of RCR on two different items.

If you combine 50% and 5% that way, you get a reduction of 55%.

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23

You shouldnt focus on deminishing returns, you simply stack cdr untill you have enough. For some builds this means just take it everywhere you can get it and for other builds it means reaching a specific threshold. example: your uliana monk on that build you just take cdr everywhere you can get it except the amulet but with your seasonal dh you probably want just enough cdr to get perma uptime on vengeance. after you have perma uptime cdr becomes less important for that build. If i recall correctly you need cdr on shoulders/gloves and 1 more item so since you are using CC set you only need to cdr rolls on your shoulders and gloves. That means that for you rings you can either go for rcr ias or raw damage.
if your resources are not a problem i would probably try getting rings that look like this: crit/crit/socket/ias

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Are there any other weapons or items that have this quirk? It just seems odd that this one specific item is like this.

With CC3 though, more CDR adds more damage, so I’m unsure of how the stats actually weigh, like is AS always better than more CDR, or is there a threshold where the DR on CDR makes it suboptimal? I have more than enough uptime for perma-Vengeance, but when I start stacking more AS I feel I have resource problems. Stacking RCR is usually an either-or scenario with AS on the pieces I currently have, and it doesn’t seem like it helps me survive more since most of the stuff I die to is a one-shot (I’ve died an embarrassing amount of times to mortar affixes… and I die a lot to Frozen because I can’t even see the damn things on some maps… ).

This is my first time playing a build w/ CC3 set, and it seems like it’s a very complicated relationship between CDR, RCR, and AS.

Side note - I tried Haunt of Vaxo on my Templar and I didn’t notice it working. He’s definitely stunning things. I know not all items work with followers but someone told me this one should.

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There is no 1 size fits all solution to this. Best advise is to use d3planner imput your build and stats and then change the numbers and see what it says

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Assuming you have cdr maxed out in the paragon stat, you only need diamond in helm with CC3 to achieve perma vengeance.

Just the Yangs. It’s convenient that the game automatically does the DR calculation for you by just combining it the RCR that’s already there, but ya it does look confusing.

If you haven’t already, go check out my UE fire guide. I don’t go into a ton of detail about this, but enough to point you in a general direction about these stats.

In short, CDR suffers from double DR, which is why having a lot of it doesn’t really help much past having the diamond in helm. Adding more CDR has a bigger impact on wolf uptime, which is likely more damage than the actual damage from CC3. If you can get CDR without trading off other important stats, then sure, keep it, especially if you want to min/max, but it’s not a necessity.

RCR is more important than people think, as even though it does suffer from regular DR, it provides damage reduction that doesn’t suffer from DR like the other stats. It’s the only stat that helps you both defensively (more vaults, toughness) as well as offensively (more multishots, lower cost on discipline skills thus more damage from UE6 bonus).

IAS is interesting because it’s not a direct damage boost. When adding IAS, people don’t account for the fact that with more speed, means you run through your hatred pool faster, which also means you spending more time to have to regenerate that hatred, negating the effects of the speed in the first place (there are other things too, but I’m not gonna get into that in this thread). IMO, IAS is probably the last stat I would go for, and that’s only if I had enough RCR/hatred regen on chest (or topaz in helm) to make that a comfortable, fun choice. This however doesn’t show up “correctly” in d3planner and other calculators.

Most things in the game should not one shot you. Mortar’s will one shot you if you get hit by the middle of it’s blast radius. If you stand outside of the ring of the indicator, it’ll only nick you and do much less damage.

Haunt of Vaxo does not work on followers. Normally, you’d want ess of johan. Followers can proc it, which allows you to be able to group monsters to take advantage of AD.

3 Likes
28

I have read your guide, and it’s very good, I just still get a little lost sometimes, or rather indecisive on what to do.

Yeah this is kind of the conundrum I’m finding myself in with rolls, and why I figured it might be best to just leave the CDR roll on my bow to at least get some extra damage with no caveats other than the DR.

I will say that since I already have CDR rolls on my gloves and shoulders, I did swap out my diamond in my helm for a topaz, rolled off the CDR on Yang’s for AS, and tried Pride’s Fall in the cube instead of Gunes (which I was very very skeptical about). I’m now #460 on the leaderboard, with a 106 clear @ 11:26, which hilariously is the exact same time to the second that I did my 105 clear yesterday, lol.

I’m still not sure about my choice. With Pride’s the build feels great since I can just spam away and only need to fire my generator to keep up Wraps and F&R buffs, but I’m wondering if something like AD on the Yang’s with Magefist in the cube might be better, since although Pride’s is technically buffing RCR, it’s not really buffing my toughness since it falls off immediately with damage taken. I wonder if just more straight damage is the answer.

Oh I know how it works… but that doesn’t stop me from insta-dying to it sometimes. It’s… a problem :rofl:

Yeah I normally use Ess but was hoping to try something different. Oh well.

Thanks for the detailed response!

29

With the gizzard/squirts setup, prides fall is an excellent option and is stronger overall than magefist would be.

Prides fall is adding quite a bit of toughness, but to your shield which is a really good thing. Prides fall’s bonus won’t fall off as long as that shield is active so if this is the setup you want to use, you have to play around trying to keep that shield up as much as possible, but the combo works well with each other.

Looking at your gear a bit more, I think IAS on your yangs is the right choice. I say this because your DML only rolled 17% AS. This means having IAS on your Yangs is giving you two break points instead of normally just one. Had your DML rolled 19% or above, then IAS roll on your yangs would only put you up one break point. This in combination with topaz and prides fall is why you noticed a difference in your clear speed. If this feels good to you, then keep it up.

If i had to make a suggestion, I’d say go for diamonds in your chest/pants. I know it’s really tough to sacrifice 1400 dex, which is a little over 10% damage for you, but the amount of toughness you’ll gain from the switch is invaluable. You can then opt for wolf instead of boar to make up that damage difference. Boar at the moment isn’t helping as much because you don’t have a lot of all rez to begin with even though the life regen is helping your shield.

Fair point :smiley:

Ya there’s not much creativity to be had when gearing up followers for higher GR’s unfortunately. :frowning:

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30

For a dumb question… pretty awesome discussion that has been started, haha. :joy:

I really hope you all can calculate and theory craft until you sleep on your keyboard when the next PTR/Patch arrives.

Good to see so much effort these days :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :ok_hand:

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31

Not that I am aware off, the reason Yang’s Recurve is like this is because it has a special 40-50% RCR roll that is independent of another 6-10% RCR roll.

The closest example is with the legacy Eternal Union ring. That ring had a 15-20% life roll and could also get a random 10-15% life roll. If both rolls were maxed, you would end up with a ring with +35% life (the two appear to combine into one affix). However, since life % is additive and not a reduction, then you get the total you would expect.

The reduction formulas apply to any damage reduction, cooldown/resource cost reduction, and control imparing reduction. For those, the formula is applied multiplicatively and the order doesn’t matter (if you apply the 50% RCR and then the 10% RCR, you get 55% regardless of the order).

Agreed, I like how the Pride’s Fall and Squirt’s buff are active together. Furthermore, the Pride’s Fall buff almost completely negates the negative effect of Squirt’s (damage taken +50%) since it provides about +43% toughness. Together, you only take 5% more damage than usual (1.5 x 0.7).

I do math for a living so this isn’t an issue for me lol.

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32

How high would you go with Gizzard/Squirt’s?

I haven’t pushed UE in a while, but I use Gizzard + Squirt’s + low vit/high AR/high RCR for farming. I hardly ever break the Gizzard shield in 90s, break it more frequently in 100s, and much past 100 it just doesn’t feel worth it for me.

For a push I feel like pretty much any hit would break your Gizzard shield, so at that point would it be better to just rely on dodging and not getting hit to keep your Squirt’s up, and take another DPS gem instead?

Just curious about your insights, since obviously you’ve pushed UE to a higher level than me!

EDIT: Just realized there’s a whole thread on this a couple posts down. Fortress Ballista in S20 is an interesting idea. Guess then you’d want at least some vit though, since the shield scales with vit. Hmmm…

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Personally, for solo higher GR’s, I drop Gizzard for Stricken.

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The answer to this differs if you’re talking about seasons or non-seasons.

In non-seasons, you’re options available to you will roughly give you similar results dependent on the rest of your gear. You could go gunes (for max toughness for shield), prides fall, magefist, hexing pants etc. I’ve done a 124 with hexing in cube with gizzard/squirts before the era reset. Given my paragon/gem/augment levels, I’d probably max out at 126 after 500 or so keys fishing and of course I’m not going to do that.

In seasons, the outlier is now we’re able to cube CoE. Because CoE is a pretty significant boost compared to the other dps options, it makes it really tough to not take it. Unfortunately, taking CoE means it becomes quite difficult for your gizzard shield to take a few hits (no prides fall or gunes), and thus you’re better off attempting to dodge attacks and running another gem if you want your seasonal DH to feel “worth it” when attempting to tackle higher GR’s.

This isn’t to say that one shouldn’t run gizzard or fortress Ballista in seasons. You can, and it makes speed farming a more comfortable experience knowing you’ll have squirts up most of, if not all the time. At a certain GR threshold, relative to gear/paragon, there’s just a noticeable clear speed difference when opting for CoE and BotP or BotS over a shield setup.

I expect this to change a bit when we get our new set/changes in the future.

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35

Yeah, I’m definitely enjoying this setup and going to stick with it for awhile. It feels a lot smoother. At first I had just tried swapping the gem in my helm and was underwhelmed, but it’s a big difference with Pride’s and even with the AS roll on the bow I’m not feeling any resource strain.

This is the only thing I haven’t tried yet, but I’m still wary of dropping all that Dex at my current paragon level. I’ll probably continue to farm for awhile for some levels and maybe a couple more augments and then try it out.

I was thinking the same thing! I definitely didn’t expect this thread to receive this much interest, and certainly didn’t expect as much insight as you’ve all provided. Thanks much! You guys rock! :+1: :+1:

2 Likes
36

This is actually sort of backwards thinking. While it’s true that at lower paragon, you get more damage from emeralds in chest/pants than you do at higher paragon, you also have relatively less toughness.

This one is kind of a tricky concept.

Each GR means enemies have 17% more HP, and deal 2.338% more damage (at least once you’re over GR70).

Now let’s say you are low paragon, and we’ll set your baseline.
After time, you get way better gear, paragon, augments. Let’s say for argument’s sake, you double your damage, and then also gain about 50% more toughness. So in absolute terms, you gain more damage than toughness with paragon/augments. But you do gain both.

But that’s in absolute terms. What if we express it in terms of GRs gained?

Doubling your damage gained you roughly 4-5 GR levels. Gaining 50% more toughness means you gain about 17-18 GRs worth of toughness.

What this means is that, relative to the GR level you should be able to clear, you have significantly more toughness at high paragon than you do at low paragon. I’ll stress this is a bit of a strange concept to think about, but it’s because of the way enemy health vs. incoming damage scaling works as you increase GR levels.

This means at low paragon, toughness is actually more important than at higher paragon. At higher paragon, in relative terms, you actually have more toughness relative to your potential GR max.

You’ll often see higher paragon players ditch toughness for more DPS. This is because they can rely on their higher paragon for toughness. When you express it in terms of GR levels gained in damage vs. toughness instead of in absolute gains, you’ll see that higher paragon players actually have more relative toughness.

So generally, it’s actually more important to have the toughness at lower paragon. Running emeralds instead of diamonds is significantly more punishing at lower paragon. At high paragon, you don’t need the toughness from diamonds as much. Of course, at that point, the dex from emeralds is worth far less too.

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37

See, this seems totally bizarre to me, as I said earlier I normally play very casually and am used to doing speeds and faceroll-annihilating stuff. Doing that GR106 it seemed to take forever for me to kill elite packs. Generally when I die, it’s more due to me sucking and getting hit by mortars and stuff than feeling like my toughness is too low in general.

I guess I’m just so used to playing for speed that I’m struggling with the idea of giving up even more damage when I feel it already takes me too long to kill stuff. I know I can run BotP or BotS to help with elites, but there’s no way I’m giving up Gizzard or BotT and I don’t think either would offset the loss of Zei’s. I’ve been wrong before though… :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

This could certainly just be a perception problem on my part. I did a GR100 today in 5:03 and that felt borderline slow to me. That 11:26 GR106 felt like I was crawling. In either case, it doesn’t feel to me like i’d be doing any better with more toughness over dex, but maybe when I try to go higher it’ll make more sense.

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It’s very easy to try out, just switch gems for 3 or 4 runs and see how it feels.

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Yeah, I know, I’m just stubborn. I’ve switched to diamonds & doggo companion since my last post. Doggo is a good boy (although he has been dying to elite affixes sometimes which is very aggravating), but as far as the gems I still don’t notice the benefit. My deaths are still always due to me not moving fast enough and/or face checking affixes. Meanwhile on the damage end, it seems my ability to kill stuff any faster is entirely stats based. I can only hold down my RMB so hard, lol, which is why I’ve been so adamant about using emeralds.

In other news, as of this posting I’m up to #320 on the leaderboard with a GR108 clear @ 13:33, so that’s cool.

A couple other questions -
Do you guys prefer the Templar or Enchantress for pushing?
At what point do you like to switch to Stricken? How long is too long to kill a RG? It’s starting to take me what seems like minutes (I haven’t actually timed it though so could just be my perception again).

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40

When the boss takes more than a couple minutes to kill without it.

Using Stricken, a boss shouldn’t take more than maybe 2 minutes for any solo build when pushing. There might be exceptions for certain builds for other classes though.

Edit: of course there are those very very high pushers that rely on power pylons for the boss, but for a general push you shouldn’t build your setup around that chance (and hoping for a good boss).

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41

As DiEoxidE pointed out couple times, RCR is the most valuable stat to push on most items for UE (obv not on rings at expense of CHC / CHD, same with gloves) because once you hit your perma Vengeance CD goal it will do very little for you (both in dmg gain and cooldowns since only other cooldowns are for companion - running boar in HC, wolf in softcore, and Invigoration which outside of doing bounties / speeds you should never need when pushing - due to RCR again).

For example my bow has innate 10% RCR on it and 8% dmg (only 45% RCR but that’s enough for me until I get a better one), there is no point for me to reroll the RCR to AS (am already at 2.0 AS) or CDR (am already at perma vengeance CD).

Meanwhile am close to 71% RCR which makes my Multishot literally free (given you use every 5s your generator to keep focus & restrain bonus up as well as wrist 50% DR), and my vaults are so cheap as well. My total DR is close to 97% which is huge for a DH (actually only my stone gauntlets LoD meteorshower wiz can beat that DR, and my WD is 96%).

And your most important concern for squirts UE is to keep the shield up as much as possible, and only your DR plays into that not your sheet toughness (which is also influenced by your total HP, life regen, life per hit / kill / recovery / globe bonus etc).

We already have a GR116 clear with UE Multishot on HC season ladder (and this is low paragon) when peeps will get 2k-3k expect to see 122-126 with fishing.