Diablo IV Skill Tree Feedback

General Discussion
1

First off I’d like to say I love the visual design of a literal skill tree! Looks great!

I just wanted to create a discussion about meaningful player choice, and simulated player choice in game design – a subject that as a player, I am no expert on.

What I can tell you, from a player’s perspective, is that lately I’ve noticed a trend of what I call “simulated choice.”

This would be a talent or skill tree system, where the player’s only meaningful decision is perhaps the first invested point on the tree. This is the only place where the player has a wide variety of meaningful choice, because from that point on, the player is more or less on a railroad track down the branch. I would imagine this is done to prevent players from accidentally spreading themselves too thin? I am not sure. But it is an alarming trend in talent system design.

Even with a few side choices down that branch (passive nodes), investing down one track with minimal deviation of the branch does not feel good.

The counter argument of course, is that “the player has the freedom to invest into any branch they like!” This is simulated choice.

I believe practical, meaningful player choice can still be achieved through a myriad of connections between the branches, rather than singular, isolated paths.

Again, this is just my humble opinion as a player, speculating on early screenshots of a system we cannot see entirely. I just am trying to give feedback about what feels good vs. what does not.

I hope either devs or other players can contribute their thoughts or ideas here.

How can we keep every single point a meaningful choice, throughout the branch of a tree? Limited options, but more powerful? Or a multitude of options, at less power? I think it’s the latter. What do you think?

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Passive/skill tree is getting better but still has a way to go.
Looks very linear and not a lot of actual choices. If you pick skill A it seems very limited on the choices for that skill/playstyle.

I think each class should be divided into 3.
Lets say a Sorcerer has 3 “speccs” Fire, Lightning, Frost. And each of those has a skill tree like this. A full Fire tree or a full Lightning tree. People like to get invested/attached into a certain part of a class they like, this is a perfect system for them to explore a “Lightning Sorc” or a “Fire Sorc”

Lets say you wanna go a Lightning Sorcerer and you like lets say Chain Lightning as a skill. Then the whole Lightning tree has passives/actives or whatnot that can modify your skill and or playstyle.

  • One branch of the tree focuses on Crit and similar things
    -Another branch focuses on mana costs/sustain
    -Another for Extra Chains/bigger AoE
    -Another for Ailments associated with Lightning (shocks etc)
    etc etc.
    But the whole Lightning skill tree has global benefits for all the different Lightning based skills.

That also adds replayability from season to season. This season i wanna go Lightning sorc, next league i wanna try a Fire Sorc. Which plays totally different, and can focus on different things.

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They’re wasting their time bringing skill trees back. There will always be a “meta” way to build everything, and players will gravitate towards those. They’re just taking the current D3 model of skills and runes, and slapping it into a tree. Whoopdiedoo. Unlock a skill, then get the “rune” for it with another skill point.

I’m skeptical of the replayability of D4. Sure, it looks like it might have a wealth of content, but D2 also had a wealth of content. I’ve played far more D3 than D2, and I hated PoE. I do not like power ceilings in ARPGs. If D4 goes back to power ceilings like limited skill points (because of a tree), limited levels, limited gear scaling, etc then I’ll just keep playing D3.

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agreed with op 100%.

Was gonna make a post about this but you beat me to it. It’s the choices that are important so I really hope that they’re gonna let us have choices how to change the active skills when we reach the passive branches of said skill.

Well said.

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Completely agreed.

A multitude of options. Each skill should pretty much have its own sub-tree of skill customization. With like 5-10 upgrades for each skill (some skills could share upgrade nodes I guess). And of course, not enough points to pick everything, or anywhere near everything.

And the whole thing should be a web rather than a tree, to avoid the linear branches. Giving us multiple paths to take toward the same skills/upgrades.

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Any Skill Tree trumps D3.

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A meta way to build has nothing to do with skill trees though. It’s a non point. There’s a meta way to build with D3 that has no skill trees.

The entire point of skill trees is to provide character progression for leveling up that is not just straight linear power for each character.

Some characters will get more power to one skill, and others will unlock a new skill.

Power ceilings are important to keep things in check. But also to provide essentially a puzzle element for builds.

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It’s quite possible.

I can understand your feeling though many fans in the community (especially the Diablo 2 community) have been asking for a “real” skill tree. Blizzard is only responding to their feedback and expectations.

If you disagree, you have to tell the D2 community that their idea of a Diablo 2-style “skill tree” is bad.

Wouldn’t a web structure be too complicated and confusing like POE’s passive tree structure is ?

And how can it be connected ? Can a Fireball skill node be linked to a Talent node ? Can a Blizzard skill upgrade node be linked to a Meteor skill upgrade node (even without unlocking Meteor skill) ? Can a Nova skill node be linked to a Lightining skill node?

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What they have shown is a step in the right direction. However, D2 had 3 trees per class, and each of those trees had interwoven branches that basically led to 3 “ultimate” skills at the bottom of that tree.

They have already said they don’t want to clone past games. They insist D4 must be different and unique, which is fair and we as players have to begrudgingly respect that. I do however think capturing the complexity of d2’s tree is a valid goal.

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I like that idea of either increasing the the power of an existing skill or having a new one to play with throughout the game. It will be a bit of a learning experience to figure out the right balance for the game play that you desire.

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Yes.
So to get to Meteor you might go through Blizzard, or some other skill.
You could of course just put 1 point (or whatever the prereq would be) in each of those skills, to get to Meteor as ‘cheaply’ as possible. Or you might decide to incorporate some of those pre-req skills in your build, to get some value out of the points spent.

I think I’d prefer a completely different system (each skill having its own upgrade “tree/web/list”), but one big web with everything in it, could likely work too.
Unlike the former system it means you need to weight all skills modifications against each other, and not merely each skills own modifications. Like theoretically upgrading fireball vs. meteor, in a build that uses both.

Each node should also be able to take multiple points. Like do I go 10 points in fireball, with 6 and 4 points in two fireball upgrades. Or maybe 6 points in fireball with 10p and 4p in the upgrades. More ways to weight your build in different directions, even when using the same skills.

I think only the size of PoEs passive web is an issue. Wolcens smaller web is not particularly confusing.

Also Diablo 4 wouldnt have the huge amount of stat nodes that PoE got.

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I think only the size of PoEs passive web is an issue.

Not only the size. Pretty much everything is alien there to a new player. This tree tells nothing to someone who haven’t read 300 tomes of PoE mechanics manuals. I spent thousands of hours in diablos, but when I made my first PoE run, I, with all my knowledge, have built a completely ineffective (as it later turned out) skill tree for my archer. With it I could make it only through campaign (to finish it you can take whatever nodes you like, it will all work somehow, so again for this goal the complexity of the tree means nothing). And then, when I made it to maps, people told me I better go make a new char with a skill tree posted on the forum for that build. This is a terrible game design, a fiasco. PoE is a game for a tiny minority of players who like theorycrafting and thrives only on this small special community of gamers.

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Just make it somewhat easier to respec (especially while lvling) and that isnt a big issue either.

Also, if the web was smaller, without all those stat nodes, I bet it would be much easier for new players to figure out where to go in the web, to create some kind of coherent build. As it is now in PoE, you really need to find those optimal paths between the main notes, for all the stat upgrades.

In Wolcen it felt reasonably easy to get a grasp of the whole web, and the synergies between nodes (well, if I ignore that half the talents were bugged and did nothing… but that is an unrelated issue)

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No, these (visual or UI layouts) are not real PoE problems. Real problem is the overcomplexity of inner game mechanics. Some see it as Super Great Mega ARPG Strength (those who are PoE fans) and they are right in their own way - because with all those possibilities and hundreds of hours of theorycrafting (and thousands of farming and trading) they can come up with super crazy unique builds, this is what they like - and indeed the game does offer such a possibility due to overcomplexity. But for ordinary player this is hell. Diablos are so popular not because they are very complex, and D4 should not be very complex. It just needs not to be boring, and for that to happen, it should offer interesting rare loot to hunt, good varied monster combat, and a lion’s share of randomization (which adds a lot to replayability). And leave all the higher math to PoE fans - let them enjoy it in their own game.

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I certainly disagree with that. Depth is important, otherwise the game is basically pointless.
Shouldn’t be unnecessary complex. But we need a ton of meaningful choices in how to build our characters. How you combine skills/skill mods/passives is part of that.
A game should strive much higher than simply not being boring. A lack of depth will result in that though.

I don’t like PoE, but its build customization and end-game is worth learning from. Not much else however.

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16

I personally think skill trees are very outdated and just a lazy solution in general. I really like Grim Dawn’s mastery system and how they do hybrid classes. Or how PoE essentially separated active and passive skills into two separate progressions. Or literally any other solution that tries to do something different than the basic skill tree formula that every korean free2play mmo already copied to death. But maybe that’s just me being bored of the format.

17

I agree with those who say each skill should have it’s own tree.

The thing I hate about some skill progression trees, and D2 didn’t do this very well either, are wasted skill points. I hate spending points in a skill, passive or active,that I don’t need, in order to get to the one’s I do. Even if it’s just one point to unlock the next in the line, it feels like a waste, and inefficient.

Let me invest only in those skills I actually want for my build by not forcing me to take “bypass” skill nodes.

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I didn’t find PoE’s skill tree to be all that complex in spite of it’s size - particularly with the search function which simplifies things.

The real issue with the PoE system is that the game is balanced around the 0.001% of meta players instead of everyone else, resulting in 99.99% of possible builds with that tree being useless. If you don’t follow the meta or trade with other players, if you try to play Solo-Self Found Mode, you are kinda screwed.

It’s a game that forces you to use social media and Wiki’s to play it, instead of what arpg’s are really about: killing monsters and taking their loot. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to watch build guides on Youtube. I don’t want to spend hours moving points around on a tree and tweaking my gear so it has exactly the perfect combination of stats, and I despise “bullet sponge” boss balancing - what I want to do is kill monsters and take their loot, which should be sufficient to carry me to the next difficulty or act.

PoE’s biggest problem is it’s horrible balance, and it’s why less than 10% of people who try it stick with it all the way to Maps. It has one of the worst retention rates for an arpg.

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There are a few SSF-viable builds. Emphasis on a few.

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i think its hard with the old tree system
because it will always be about reaching the end of the branches for the most powerful skills and having mandatory picks inbetween
titan quest and later grim dawn already prevented this with letting you just “level” the tree without actually picking a skill that you dont want to use
but i think if you really want player choice and different builds, you need to move away from the vertical system, at least for active skills
fireball shouldnt just be the weak thing until you get meteor and so on
so i guess a tree should actually provide a variety of active skill right at the bottom, with branches going upwards from it, enhancing it as much as you want to invest into it
mostly like mr. llamas paint example

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