From the example they gave it seems rares can’t have more normal affixes than legendaries after all… Which is a very bad move I agree.
Unless the essence can be used only on 4 affix rares and there are still 5 affix rares than can’t be changed ?
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Exactly, legendary items that drop would be far weaker than legendary items attained via rare essence upgrade. I’d like to avoid that honestly.
So, let’s say a no lifer farming 14 hours a day can access 140 boards per Season. A dedicated player farming 8 hours a day - 80 boards. A regular farming 4 hours a day - 40 boards. And a casual farming 1 hour a day - 10 boards.
If the paragon board cap is 10 then:
- The casual obviously have to play with what he have
- The regular has more than enough boards to choose from and if smart enough can end up with better adapted paragon than the dedicater and no lifer
This paragon system has real potential if they make it AI-based or procedural. Otherwise, it would be boring and annoying.
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Then you would loose the “mapping” game of the board. It’s actually more instinctive to understand the logic of the system when you spend a point per tile to get to the next ones.
Sorry but he itemization seem awful, checking the article screenshot I’m seeing D3 all over again.
Just big flat DPS numbers ( why thousands ?). And boring porcentual afixes ( +X% damage, x% critic , x% reduction resource etc…) . Legendary essences work similar to the cube powers in D3 and now rare items are gonna be used to be infused to boring legendaries.
Paragon system is directly a copy cat from Path of exile skill tree. And glyphs work exactly like POE Jewels, upgrading nodes from the tree in a specific aoe radio where the jewel/glyph.
Itemization is bad, and paragon system is a copycat from POE.
Please just sit and talk with the D2R develop team how good itemization works and just scrap this D3 wanabee item system.
2 Likes
Upgrading rares with essences, the flexibility essences give: Good, very good!
Rares, blues, whites have no place in an end build. Legendaries must outpower those by a lot.
+skills on items will probably become very prominent, mandatory. Any item without it will be useless. Like in D3 where ALL rings and amulets without both chc and chd are completely useless for any serieus end game play (gr). (Save for very, very few builds).
Visuals: Sounds really promising and beautifull to look at. I love seeing the blood and gore, the bits and pieces and all the splatter.
With chills, freezes etc, don’t do it like D3 where it has a very short effect nearly useless especially on the stronger monsters, elites and bosses.
Even bosses should frozen solid…
Paragon boards sound limitless and complex. I am guessing that we are cannot -eventually- pick all the tiles… The choices made should not be permanent. Ever.
Especially not when leveling is tedious (like D3 in its early days) or when there is a character cap like D3 and D2R.
I like being able to change my build on a character without having to delete one, make a new one and level it up again.
How will the paragon choices impact the ability to play any and all endgame content? Will it be that certain choices are needed for a particular endgame content but the character cannot play a different endgame content due to the choices made? Will the choices lock out the ability to play some content?
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Picking all tiles from a single board should be possible. Picking all tiles from all boards should not be.
Let’s say 300 tiles per board and you can access 10 boards with a maximum of 600 points - this would mean you could go full/max on 2 boards and nothing on the others; or 20% per board on average with no board being full.
Last Epoch does this https://forum.lastepoch.com/uploads/default/original/2X/f/f3d5f3bb7d76d19de2b352498bf3c0f606aecf59.jpeg, but then has to indicate on branches how much you need to invest into source node to unlock destination node (like: invest 2 points to node A to unlock node B, and 3 points to unlock node C).
Both systems works.
The system chosen by Diablo IV has the advantage to make some glyphs irradiate upon adjacent nodes. This effect that can only be achieved by using a grid composed of small tiny nodes.
I’d like to try the Diablo IV system, if it is possible. Even without the game itself.
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this so much
Why are they doing this again.
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A few thoughts on Items
In the Blog you showed a Level 44 Magic 2h Axe which has ~2600 DPS and that has a Damage Range per Hit of ~2300-3500.
Since Level 50 seems to be the new Max Level, I assume that these numbers are even higher for Level 50 Weapons. And even though the item you showed in the Blog is not a Max Level Weapon, these numbers are way, way too high in my opinion, as they just feel inflated.
I personally think that about 600 to 650 DPS is really enough for a Max Level 2h Weapon, regardless of what the Maximum Level is.
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In regards to Legendaries and the new Essence System that allows you to transfer a Legendary Power to other Legendaries and Rare Items (by which it turns the Rare Items into a Legendary):
I personally dislike it because it takes away from the Identity of Rare Items, it makes Magic Items useless, it also makes Legendaries less special and also takes away their identity as well.
So I would encourage you to look for other ways to make Rare Items more useful, but in a way that keeps the identity of both Rare and Legendary Items intact, and also for a way to let Magic Items compete later on.
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Now that I explained why I personally do not the new Legendary and Essence System, I may also share some ideas on how I would do it, but I think it is important to keep these two things separate, as one is more objective and the other one consists of my personal ideas and preferences.
Take from my suggestions / ideas what you will, but just know that the issue with the current system is that two different Item Classes with different Identities being conflated together, which results in their “uniqueness” and identity being taken away / watered down.
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I personally would make it so that you could find rare Consumables which drop from Enemies, Chests, etc, that you can put on Rare Items (and on Rare Items only), which add +1 random Normal Affix to the Rare Item. You can only put up to 3 of these Consumables on the Rare Item for a total of +3 random Normal Affixes.
Eventually these additional Affixes can only be Affixes that did not already spawn on the Rare Item and eventually can only have 2/3 of the Power of a Normal Affix.
To illustrate:
Rare Item before being upgraded:
https://imgur.com/MEP7KFB
Rare Item after being upgraded by putting 3 Consumables on it:
https://imgur.com/AZCrtQW
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For upgrading Magic Items, they could be upgraded in D4’s version of the Cube or an Artisan that
- 1 - increases each of the Magic Items Affixes randomly by anywhere between 30-100%
- 2 - has an x% Chance (maybe a 10% Chance) to add +1 Affix from a list of predetermined Affixes
- 3 - another x% Chance to add a second additional Affix to the Magic Item.
That upgrade could only be done once.
To illustrate:
Magic Item before upgrade
https://imgur.com/hhUjKg4
Possible Outcome 1
Bad outcome. Only a ~30% increase of all Affixes, +0 additional Affixes.
https://imgur.com/EGPUY2b
Possible Outcome 2
Somewhat decent outcome, Affixes increased by low and medium amounts, +1 additional Affix.
https://imgur.com/mEFGSmF
Possible Outcome 3
Good outcome. Affixes increased by medium and higher amounts, +2 additional Affixes.
https://imgur.com/XhB8WHE
Possible Outcome 4
Perfect Upgrade. All Affixes increased by 100%, +2 additional Affixes.
https://imgur.com/zJDveFW
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I personally would prefer it if Unique Items and Legendary Items would just be one and the same, aka Special Items with Special Affixes that have both predetermined Normal Affixes and predetermined Special Affixes, but that is just my opinion.
https://imgur.com/7eojJA8
https://imgur.com/Ned21gy
https://imgur.com/IZSutOg
https://imgur.com/pUFcLJQ
https://imgur.com/tRMBbTH
The reason I mention this and share the concept art is because it would make things easier to balance and also allow the Legendaries/Uniques to tell their own story / have their own theme…
… and it also would allow Magic and Rare Items to potentially compete with Legendaries/Uniques, but only after they have been upgraded.
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If you don’t like the concepts / ideas / suggestions / illustrations I shared, that is fine. You still can find other ways to make Rare Items (and eventually also Magic Items) more useful without them loosing their identity, ways that may are more in resonance with what you prefer.
I just think it is important to keep the identity of each Item Class intact.
Thank you!
Your answer suits me. It remains to be hoped that the rune system or even the gems (amethyst, ruby, … if they still exist) are of power equivalent to the legendary essence.
You are of course right. But that is true for all affixes, also those that do not interact with the skill tree (Crit, CDR, and so on). Balance is always important.
Shouldn’t be scared of adding stuff to the game because of balancing, otherwise they can’t do anything.
Maybe one way to balance it, if normal balancing isn’t enough (best if it is though), could be increasing cost to getting a skill lvl. It makes things a bit more complex, but most affixes have some kind of diminishing returns, so it makes sense imo. Like, getting 100 extra HP is worth less if you already have 10000 hp, vs if you have 3000.
So, if you have 10 points in a skill already (soft cap with points), then adding 2 ranks from gear affixes brings you to 12. But, if you get +6 points from gear, it only translates to 14, due to the 4 additional ranks requiring 6 points. And so on.
We need Diablo to drink chlorine!
So much this.
I dont mind having some endgame system to “lvl”. But it should be LIMITED. Like, in D2 you have lvl 99 to hunt for. It takes a while, but it is still actually limited. It ends at some point. Paragon should also end, and honestly, faster than lvl 99 does in D2. Especially if it gives a bunch of power (which lvl 99 in D2 does not).
Something is really wrong if it takes a 1000 hours to “finish” a character.
Please god no 
This system seems to fit easy to learn hard to master quite well though.
As long as it has a very reachable, sensible limit.
That would be really annoying limitation imo. Better to just remove any additional affixes beyond 4 (either random which ones are removed, or if we are in a good mood; let the player select which affixes to keep, at a much much higher crafting cost, something you only do with the best of the best items).
Yeah, this system is simple enough. Only question imo, is if it is too much to get a good sense of. Like the PoE map where you need to scroll all around forever after to see where everything goes. Especially if there are multiple paragon boards to go into, each one might not need to be huge.
That should never happen.
But some content should, and hopefully would, be harder, based on your build choices.
Like if you make a build that is really good against slow, big enemies/bosses, and you get into a random dungeon with a ton of fast monsters, you might struggle.
Yeah, not permanent. But hopefully with a significant cost/limit to respeccing it. Like allowing a respec once a month or so on average (+ always after a balance patch).
Agreed.
Well, being able to pick 600 tiles might be excessive, but it depends on many things.
In general, I’d probably decrease the boards a bit. Like 100 tiles per board. To keep them more readable.
Then we can have 1 starting board. And 8 boards around it. Which means, to reach the Upper Left board you can either go Up from the starting board, and then Left. Or you can go Left and then Up. Reach it through different board paths.
Like, 5 is the starting board.
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
If each board has 100 tiles, that is 900 tiles in total. Then we can get 150-200 points.
Same as your numbers basically, just with everything kept a bit smaller in scope for players to read and grasp. And to make each individual choice matter a bit more.
Also, maybe each Rare and Legendary tile should have an increasing cost, so make it more of a choice vs. other tiles.
First Legendary tile cost 1 point, next cost 2, next cost 4, next cost 8, next 16 etc. So yeah, you can spread out and go for legendary tiles in each board, but it comes at a more significant cost.
Yeah, Last Epoch has a really nice system.
Agreed. Honestly, both of these systems are good. And Diablo 4 can even have both…
Last Epochs system is perfect for the skill tree (1 tree for each skill). And then the web for paragon/passive bonuses to the character.
Did you see the FX video where the Rogue deals 330,000 dmg? 
Diablo 3 all over again.
4 Likes
All legendary affixes can roll an all slots. I think that example they gave if finding martial arts in rings, chestplates, or helmets was showing that they can roll on stuff other than boots like it would be in D3. The only ite.s with locked specific affixes are uniques.
Sounds like this is thankfully no longer the case. Which is really good. Was the biggest flaw in the Legendary design.
Both the Martial Arts example, as well as the Essence Mock-up indicates that each legendary affix has a limited selecttion of slots it can show up in.
However, clarification would be good. It really needs to be limited, otherwise the entire Legendary system is going to be an unbalanceable mess, and take away the hard choices in the gearing process.
So just in case, Blizzard, if this is not what you meant in the blog; each legendary affix should only be able to drop in (or be crafted into) 2-4 different item slots each.
That gives some flexibility, which is awesome. But without removing all gear choices. And allowing you to balance powers, when you know we cant get 5 specific legendary effects at the same time, since they are only available in boots and belts for example. It just makes balancing easier.
omfg, I did not notice that…
Yeah, that would suck…
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I will respond to your other replies to my posts tomorrow, since it is getting late, it took quite a while to write down everything I did in my previous posts and me being a bit exhaused.
But I’ll respond sooner or later.
300 is fine, as it is now.
For the paths, it could be done two ways:
1] The old school way with knowing what’s around you and everything being static which is boring
2] Getting a new randomly generated board each time you reach an exit with the ability to rotate this board before attaching it. Once attached, it could be replaced by other boards in the future, but not rotated again.
No need to complicate this if any player can reach the maximum boards with being semi-active. The cost should be 1 point for any tile.
In the politest possible way, why are blizzard not acknowledging that the item system in d3 was a failure, and d2s was vastly superior. You need to rip out what you have done so far and go back to basics, d2 is a perfect platform to build upon yet you are veering for d3 systems yet again.
Massively disappointing update.
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If the legendary tiles are really powerful, and it looks like they are, it just means the only choice is to get as many legendary tiles as possible.
By increasing their cost, you balance that choice vs. going for less legendary tiles.
Now, an alternative to having a higher legendary tile cost, could be that you cant pick the legendary tile unless you spend X points in a board first. That accomplishes much of the same, and might be easier to grasp.
While D3s itemization is indeed far worse than D2s (and far worse than pretty much all other A-RPG itemizations ever created), D2s itemization is also pretty bad.
Diablo 4 should not copy either.
Learn from each, and maybe more important, learn from other A-RPGs.
What specifically do you not like about D4 itemization as it is shown?
4 Likes
i dont want to compare diablo with PoE, but I like itemization from PoE, all the different options many ways to finish the game, or reach the end-game.
But I like what I saw in this last update to be honest. (i just hope they dont keep increasing numbers haha)
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Yes, eventually. If you farm like 10k boards at that character you’d have the legendary nodes you need. This is a further motivation for the no lifers.
But in the regular case the players would end up sacrificing most legendary tiles in the beginning and later replacing those boards with legendary powers they need.
I am of course considering we’ll have many legendary powers.
This is worse since it would create problems/restrictions for the procedural algorithm if we can’t remove points.
Generally I don’t see a problem with a dedicated guy playing 2 years on one character and having all the 10 boards with the exact legendary powers he wants. I mean let him have it and enjoy it until the developers add power creep and make that legendary powers useless. Then he’ll sacrifice them and farm new ones in between.