Diablo 4 will be a 'dark and gritty modern diablo 2' apparently

The thing is, during the Sin Wars, all humans were slowly developing their Nephalem powers as they began to awaken. Thus, all humans were slowly becoming Nephalem. Nephalem are essentially Gods.

Which brings me back to my original point. It’s hard to really have a, ‘dark and gritty,’ game when in reality, unless this is taking place only in Hell, humanity may very well have grown to the point where their powers eliminate plague, pestilence, famine, drought, and end other glaring societal problems like poverty, homelessness, and hunger. The potential of the Nephalem makes it difficult for such an existence to NOT be a guaranteed eventuality.

That’s why I was never crazy with Diablo 3 making the PC into a Nephalem. If we had somehow ended the expansion with the knowledge that the Nephalem were once more returning to being humans, that’d be fine, but it’d also kind of negate the point of there having been that ascension to begin with.

I’d rather they’d never taken that story direction, to be honest. Humans reaching their maximum potential and then relying on powerful equipment was plenty good to immerse us in the setting we all fell in love with decades ago.

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You are skipping key parts of the story though. Not all humans have latent ability to start with. Next, the effects of Mal and the Black Soulstone are still largely unknown. Third, it is very presumptive to think that because something is strong, it is hard to be dark and gritty…

What does dark and gritty have to do with power? And why would it be that hard for someone like Lilith to instantly sap what power is left, seeing that she created, she likely can eradicate as well!

Do we know for sure D4 takes place after the events of D3?

All presumptive to this point, but I think based on the current story, there are hundreds of avenues that can be taken to make the game dark and gritty even if it continues from the D3 story which we know is going to start with the fall of the Neph.

All humans do descend from Nephalem, and thus all have those powers within them. Some will manifest those powers sooner than others, but eventually, all humans would become Nephalem. We know this from the Sin War Trilogy.

In a world where humanity are Gods they can just give themselves whatever they want or need at a moment’s notice. Feeling hungry? Have a feast fit for a king. Cold? Make the air around you warmer, or whip up some nice comfortable clothes. Tired of the rain? Assuming you don’t just hand-wave it away you could always create a palace from nothing to keep you dry.

A world in which the main race are Gods is a bit difficult to sell as, ‘dark and gritty.’ This is my concern.

Nothing yet, and I assume you mean Diablo 3. It’s possible for Diablo 4 to be a prequel, but considering Lilith is supposedly involved, unless we’re set to play out the events of the Sin Wars, I would assume it’s a direct sequel.

The thing is, we don’t know if it’s going to start with the fall of the Nephalem or not. Rumors I’ve seen suggest that it’s a few hundred years later, Heaven has decided the Nephalem need to die, and Lilith comes back to protect her children again.

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D4 is what we should be focus on here and making sure it has aspects in the game that everyone should enjoy.

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Yup, meant D3, thanks for that !

I agree, but until I see the storyscape etc… it is hard to come up with something fruitful.

I think deciding the Neph need to die is a given, which is what I meant by the fall of the Neph. I could see that being Act 1, and then depending on how it is driven, could be a few more acts or end there.

Lilith being an enemy along with the Neph would be a great script, and having us play as Horadrim would then make sense fighting along side a newly made angelic Tyrael reformed.

I really think D4 is going to focus strongly on reforming key characters into the image they think should have happened all along.

This reforming is what will drive it overall into a dark place, coupled with us being puny in comparison to our D3 selves. I am expecting strategic thought out fights, with one hit kill mechanics we need to dodge, cutscenes that are gory and demonic, and storytelling that is cryptic.

Even if the players are Gods, it don’t matter, just look at God of War for a bloody gory game, swap that into a dungeon crawler like Diablo, easy to accomplish in my eyes.

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We? Who is this we? I don’t think I’ll focus on D4 at all. I think I’ll focus on D2 Remastered.

Hows that grab ya?

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Applause, couldn’t have said it better myself.

Take into consideration D2 is a ~20 years game and it still offers more diversity in builds per class than a modern D3…

I don’t bash D3, it is not the worst game but it is far from being very good. It is an underworked game that could have been better. No surprise it isn’t when even the devs admit it was ultimately close to a failure and isn’t what they or their fans expected.

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Considering none of the characters, including Tyrael, made any mention regarding Andarial or Duriel losing strength in order to enter the mortal realm; I believe that’s unlikely.

Perhaps so, but that would suggest that humanity possessed the capabilities to contend with the forces of heaven and hell even without their Nephalem birthright.

Maybe so; but they accomplished feats that seemed impossible for humans. The Diablo 2 heroes slew Blood Raven and the false summoner, two people who actually defeated Diablo in the past, as well as scores of demons (including demons within Hell itself) and monsters, Andariel and Duriel, two of the lesser evils (whether they’ve been weakened is unknown, though nothing of the sort was implied in the game), and the prime evils, now whether they were weaker than their time during the eternal conflict is unknown, although I don’t believe so, because if so, Andariel and Duriel wouldn’t have been so keen on assisting them.

Those fates took places during the sequels or at least after the game itself. Our Nephalem characters in Diablo 3 may very well share similar fates in Diablo 4. After all, being a Nephalem doesn’t mean you’re invulnerable, as in RoS there was the demon Vidian who was killing nephalems and draining their blood in order to strengthen his own power.

HA!!! another troll bites the dust

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I think I agree that cooldowns doesn’t make the game better. I mean by having cooldowns we just spend more resource to reduce it so that the important skills can be 100% covered.

I think CD should be rare and never on buff skills. Why a game should bother its player to keep clicking a key whenever in battle? This is stupid. It’s only OK to have some CD-based instad of attack speed-based attack skills.

Homogenization is a side effect of high drop rate and GR. If everyone are capable of getting every item (because of high drop rate + intelligent drop) in the game and there is a best combination (because of GR), everyone will use it.

I love high drop rate and intelligent drop. Once I have it in D3 I can’t get used to the other ARPG games any more, unless I use a cheater (luckily non of them needs you to be online :joy: , and I don’t play PoE). I love GR too so I think the only solution is to make another endgame activity as good as GR, which gives the same drop and require the same key as GR so that it doesn’t force you to play both.

As you already no doubt know, Activision tried to patent a system where they would match new players with older players in the attempt to get newer players to see how awesome the gear looked on the older player and encourage them to buy the cosmetics.

Because they are put in to target people who are whales and people who struggle with impulse control. It’s a deliberate attempt to exploit other people.

I don’t know sh.t about D2, but I keep on hearing it’s the greatest arpg so this is only good news right.

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Can we get a legit source on your post besides some friend of someone’s uncle that posted on reddit once that happened to be overlooking a cube that was mass-replying to an e-mail from a once-colleague on a questionably official blizzard e-mail that you had a dream about besides some typo-riddled copy-pasta you cherry picked keen details from, @OP?

IMO old games did right with buffs. I was playing DarkStone, at low level, i need a lot of mana to light my area for few seconds. Leveling the spell and getting levels make the spell makes the spell lasts longer and becomes more cost effective.

Diablo 2 did something similar to BUFFS. For Eg, Cyclone armor more damage when you level up the skill more.

Not true. Diablo 3 even before RoS was extremely homogenizes

Even honest game trailers mocked D3 by having everyone being equal, see 1:08

You see two necromancers on D2, one can be a poison mancer, other bonemancer, they can cast completely different curses, had different skills, one could have invested into revive to get meatshields, or invested more in bone skills. Who knows? I never saw anyone equal me in D2…

In D3, the unique difference is the gear that both are wearing.

[quote=“shadowcat129-1179, post:100, topic:5092”]
ayer and encourage them to buy the cosmetics.

My point is. Diablo 3 got abandoned, part because is awful and part because after the RMAH, there was no way to monetize post launch. Copy the Path of Exile model would not be that bad IMO. I never saw anyone criticizing it.

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Hmm I should say “today’s” homogenizes is because of drop and GR. Before RoS I would say that’s because D3 vanilla was not a good game. There was just too few contents people can play with, and legends sometimes are worse than rares…

I think they screwed up with removal of skill tree. With legend powers enhancing skills it looks right, but after power creep things are out of control again. D3 won’t live as long as D2 did in this way, but nowdays very few games can live for 5+ years either so I’ll give this solution a score of 90/100. I like the simplicity and the difference from other games, especially when the other games are making their skill trees much more complicated than D2.

And putting cooldowns
Removing attributes
Removing most affixes on gear
Copying wow itemization and gameplay style about rotation management
(…)

As for few games can survive 5+ years. Last time i logged on D2 battle net, there was 100k+ guys only on US East.

The main problem of D3 is not just that they removed skill tress. Character building in Dark Souls is AMAZING and there are no skill trees. Pathfinder Kingmaker, the best modern tactical RPG too. No skill tress and the best character creation. The problem is that they removed skill tree and gived a cod-like skill line where everyone is a clone. It is fine in a FPS, but doesn’t work in a ARPG.

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This change fine and maybe correct. Attribute system is actually a mess players have to deal with. I don’t really fell “grown up” by clicking those “+” on my attributes, and usually re-allocating my attribute points, even when cost-free, is painful experience.

All D2 guides I’ve ever read said something like “Strength enough to wear you gears and all else to Dexterity”. I don’t think this kind of attribute system enhanced game experience or increased the depth of game.

Yes, it reduced the depth of the game. I think this change worked as intended but the intension was wrong. Diablo-like games are born to have a extremly complicated system.

What’s the number, monthly active user? This is surprising to me. Myself can’t bear the 1024*768 resulution any more.

But it is Pathfinder which is supposed to be more complicated than skill trees. I once read its TRPG rule book and just glanced at its wiki, thinking they’re of similar complexity (like Balder’s Gate to D&D 3E/3R).

I think I get you point on character building. I agree that D3 almost removed the process of character building completely but with its GR and drop system everyong would eventually become a clone.

I still see the removal of clicking “+” to your abilities an improvement instead of a flaw. You can switch to a different build easily, and this is amazing to me because I like trying different builds, but I don’t really enjoy tuning the points.

Not true. Diablo 2 did attributes wrong, but this doesn’t means that is impossible to implement attributes right.

Old fallout games implemented it right, VtMB implemented it right, Gothic 1/2/3 implemented it right, M&M since the 80s to 2002 implemented it right. Any good D&D adaptation, ToEE, IWD, BG, etc implemented it right… D3 should have FIXED it, not removed it…

Not true. Compared to 90s RPG’s, Diablo is very easy to play. M&M VI had 7 attributes, Diablo 1, only 3 and doesn’t skill levels, complex potion crafting with fail chance, item enchanting via magic, etc.

Ultima Online is much more complex than any diablo game. And was a very mainstream 90s mmo.

Yes, IMO the changes of attributes on D2 would be something like :

  • Divide all numbers by 5 making then smaller
  • Make ENERGY increases magical attack damage
  • Make DEX instead of having a hardcap on block, having a softcap

And you will not need to press + 500 times once respec at lv cap, and building will not be min STR / rest into vit.

Yes, a D20-like attribute system is better. But Diablo-like games unfortunately never did it right…

Actually the 4 attributes D3 have seems right, but the scale is too much. All of the basic values should be divided by 10 and the values provided by gears mabe divided by 20 or even 100. Making STR and DEX a mirror to each other is stupid too. Perhaps it should be like STR enhance critical dmg, DEX enhance attack speed, and INT enhance cricical chance.

I like D20’s feat system too but it’s too hard to balance and in a GR oriented world everyone will also be a clone.

If I can make a design, I’ll choose

  • D20-like attribute system with only STR/DEX/CON/INT
  • Skill trees, but only passive skills.
  • D3-like skill and rune system, for attack skills only and everyone has less skills
  • Less skill slots. All buffs should be passive and everyone will only need 3 skills.

I thought it would be good to condense my thoughts on the future of Diablo into a feedback letter for the development team in charge of the next major Diablo installment for PC. I share the community’s disappointment with the Immortal reveal for many reasons, so let’s look forward and discuss the next chapter, shall we? Here’s what I believe the next Diablo game needs to be successful long term.

Trading

I’ve played Diablo 2 actively for going on 15 years, and one of the main reasons that it keeps me engaged is trading. Through trading, we’re able to funnel what resources we find into targeted upgrades, while simultaneously making new friends and sharing lasting experiences. In today’s D3, when you find a well rolled legendary for another class or build, it is most of the time completely useless. In vanilla D3, or D2, it was a cause for excitement! Now I can trade this for runes/gold to buy the item I want next! While I believe trading comes in a better form than an Auction House for a Diablo title, when D3 removed the AH it also removed a large part of the reason we kept grinding and engaging with the game. I was the first of my friends to reach Paragon 100 and being able to trade what I found to pool resources to upgrade my character down the line is what kept me playing even after that. Paragon levels 1500-9999 don’t keep me engaged in playing in the same way at all. How about a website or forum where you list what you need/offer which facilitates you meeting players in a dedicated game or trading zone to make the trade? It streamlines the trading process enough that it doesn’t feel dated and clunky, and allows for social interaction and community building.

In my eyes, the next Diablo title for PC needs a face-to-face trading system to keep the core playerbase engaged over the long term.

Runes and Runewords

Runes were a wonderful gear system for many reasons. They enabled many character builds that were previously hampered by the lack of certain skills, complemented existing builds with auras that let them clear content previously unavailable to them, and even made the process of playing a new character more interesting. As you leveled you would not only equip the best magic and rare items you found to survive, you could also save up runes to create runewords like Stealth or Leaf that greatly enhanced your efficiency for a while. Even the way you had to put runes into specific types of items and in certain orders made them feel more mystical and powerful. Legendaries tried to simulate this level of game-altering effects, but fell short in the sense that after the RoS changes, rare items were rendered entirely useless, whereas in D2, a really well rolled rare was always highly valuable in many gear slots, no matter the build you were playing. It meant you had something to search for, even after you found that Shako your Paladin needed so badly. I believe D3 would’ve been much better off with the legendary effects of RoS, somehow balanced to keep rare items relevant and a step up on the absolute top level.

The next Diablo PC installment desperately needs a gearing system like runes and runewords. There’s no shame in outright copying it, since it works so damn well even today.

Rarity

In today’s D3, legendaries are incredibly easy to come by. Run a T13 rift and you’ll probably pick up somewhere in the region of 5-10 legendaries per rift minimum. Back in the day, even in WoW aswell as Diablo, Epic and Unique items were rare enough that finding one mattered. And in D2, when you did find something, and it wasn’t exactly what you were looking for, it wasn’t immediately rendered useless. Because of trading, you could put that item toward your next upgrade anyway! Many players today claim D2’s level of rarity was too punishing. The thing is though, trading bridged the gap between what you found and what you wanted, so the rarity of the specific item you were searching for wasn’t as punishing. On top of that, the reason it is so rewarding to see that Unique Diadem drop is that Griffon’s Eye is both incredibly rare and immensely powerful in certain character builds. When a certain legendary 2H mace is really powerful, but legendaries even of that type drop constantly, it simply doesn’t feel as good to find the one you need in the end.

Powerful items in the next Diablo game need to be rare enough that they feel special. It doesn’t matter how powerful it is if we can get 5 of it in an hour, we need to feel it aswell.

PvP

I won’t go too much indepth regarding D2 PvP as I never engaged in it heavily, but that on its own should tell you a fair bit. D2 LoD is 17 years old and I am still engaged enough by the PvM and trading aspects of the game that I have a largely unexplored portion of the game to check out. D2 PvP still has a sizeable community surrounding it. Players create builds for all sorts of purposes. Dueling at level 9, 18, 29, 49 and several other increments is popular even to this day and the great gearing system is part of the reason why. A similar scene couldn’t exist in D3 due to its scaling and legendaries granting way too big spikes in power.

Properly made PvP that fits the Diablo genre builds new communities and keeps the game fresh for years beyond its release, and is a must for the next title.

Skill and Attribute customization

A big topic of discussion in BFA lately has been how the revamped talent system which awards a point every 15 levels makes reaching a new level feel less impactful. A comparison can be drawn to the simplified skill system and attributes in Diablo 3. Leveling up in D2 grants you 5 points to place into Strength, Dexterity, Vitality or Energy. This means that every single time you reach a new level you get to decide if you want to invest in being able to wear heavier types of armor/hit harder with physical attacks, equipping higher level dexterity-based weapons, increase your life total and stamina, or improve the consistency of your damage output and survivability through a larger mana pool. In D3, going from level 7 to 8 might mean that a skill had a new rune unlocked, but if you weren’t already using that skill, or the effects didn’t align with the way you were trying to play, it was a waste entirely.

On top of letting you decide exactly how your character grows in terms of attributes, you were awarded a skill point with every level. I think it’s fair to say that the D2 skill trees laid a large amount of the groundwork for the system used in WoW’s most popular years of existence, and it does its job very well. You get something every level, but there are still milestone levels where you unlock new abilities, so you get incremental rewards aswell as something big to look forward to. The way skills synergized with eachother was brilliant in the sense that if you made a Sorceress with the plan to focus on the Blizzard skill, you were strengthening it via synergies before it was available, making that level 24 even more satisfying. Whereas today, whether or not you use a skill is largely dependant on if the developers created a set that complements it with enormous damage % increases or not, a Sorceress in D2 could be built in a myriad of ways for different purposes, because the existing class sets didn’t disable all other gameplay options purely via scaling. On top of all this, it also meant that every level 90 Paladin was different in some way, and not a complete carbon copy of the next one over.

The next Diablo game needs a fully fleshed out skill and attribute system that lets each player feel their character grow with each level, and tailor it to what they like.

These are some of the aspects that I think made Diablo 2 such an iconic game, and why it holds up to this day, and remains a favorite for many long-time fans over D3. I hope this sparks a discussion on what the rest of you want to see in Diablo 4, and that the core Diablo community can be heard once and for all.

This is actually someone else’s thoughts and I agree with it all. However, I would like to add a few things:
I hope they make the talent tree more complex and make more customization with the characters. Also, I hope it’s a whole world of sanctuary and 360 degree view of the character and the environment around the character. I’m a classic d1 and d2 fan and this is what I would like to see. I know that’s a big change and a lot to ask, but I think it would make diablo a much better game at this point. To be honest, D4 just looks like a slightly upgraded version of D3. Needs a lot of work. I do really like the open world idea… SO much cooler!!! OH YEAH… RUNE WORDS PLEASE!!! The runeword system in D2 was epic. I like that I had to look up the different runewords and how to know which qualities of items were best for those runewords. Also, item crafting in the cube was epic. I really hope D4 takes all this into account. Hope they don’t disappoint. I HOPE that this game pulls me away from WoW forever. I hope they take WoW into account for a lot of what they do in D4. If they make the game too simple, WoW players will just stick to playing WoW. Just saying. Hope Blizz sees this post.