You realize playets download profiles into the planner not because of maths, but because someone else did the work of mapping out the build, it isn’t because the math is hard.
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You know what.
I recently got through a nice little new indie game called Tunic. Guess what it does; it writes a bunch of its actual game rules in gibberish language, or you get half the rule in English and half in gibberish. To make you figure out what some of its rules are on your own.
The freaking tooltips of many of the items you can equip are in Gibberish too.
Somehow, people still figured out how to play, and even solved completely insane puzzles while doing so. Without Skelos the Time Traveler being there to hold their hands along the way, and tell them how to read or do math.
You keep repeating that, but it simply is false.
Nor are the affixes in D3 written in any unknown languages.
But, as I have said many times, I am very much in favor of games having IN-GAME encyclopedias/almenacs/bestiaries/whatever name fits, that explains EVERYTHING* about the game. So whenever there is an item affix that might not be completely self-explanatory, that should be explained in those.
Like a classic is “deal 10% more damage while wounded”. What the heck does wounded mean? Check the encyclopedia. Ah, wounded means you have to be at less than 20% HP. Great!
*And when I say everything I mean; lots of stuff should of course be discovered before showing up in the almanac.
Like, if the game had runewords, maybe you had to find some lore books hidden throughout the game world, to restore the runewords in your almanac.
Or breakpoints; the encyclopedia tells you that breakpoints exist, but you only get information on what they do, after reaching each breakpoint by equipping items.
Or information about monsters, how they fight, what their stats are etc. only show up by killing a bunch of them.
That kind of natural discovery as you play.
Only telling you stuff after you were already given the opportunity to figure it out on your own.
I think one issue here is:
Where you see a lost player that will cry him/herself to sleep because they encountered a challenge, I see a player that has taken their first step on a learning experience, where they over time get better at the game, and their understanding increases.
That is a beautiful game experience when a developer manages to pull it off.
Not being unable to progress can foster curiosity, defiance, a will to overcome the unknown. Rather than the defeatism you seem to represent. Where players are just supposed to give up at the first inconvenience.
Q1) Ideally no build should be unavailable due to missing an item, but let’s say you need 7-8 legendary powers to make it shiny : 5 hours average for each, so 35-40h.
Q2) BiS : something like 300 hours I’d say.
Q3+4) No idea as bad RNG means potentially never get the items you want. That’s why there needs to be alternate systems (craftingt/trading/gambling) to get items by grinding gold/mats.
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That’s something to avoid for sure, which is why I prefer a smart loot system that still drops very wide than an item targeting system.
As you say it’s hard to balance between players, what’s important is to make sure builds are not locked down behind some rare item than requires dozens of hours of farming.
I agree, otherwise it would feel useless to craft these potions.
I don’t think people should be completely left at the mercy of RNG.
Problem with your system is that it makes drops either very targeted or completely random. It will feel like a waste to play without these potions, ruining the very nature of looting.
At least crafting/trading are separate activities. But I agree they must be tuned so they don’t replace looting.
Yes they should. There should be +3 to specific skills, +2 to skill categories and +1 to all skills (numbers only to illustrate). It helps supporting more build diversity.
Absolutely, a game must never be just a shallow experience that provides only fast and short gratification.
The only thing needed is not to make complex systems necessary to play the game. Additionnal systems in endgame ? Sure ! But not right from the get-go. After all, a player can still finish D2 playing with just 2 skills…
I think also +skill items like those in D2 should make a comeback ( we seen in D4 items already) . This make base item for crafting more fun, as well as separate great items from good one to further the loot hunt.
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How would such long hours work in course of a season of 3 months?
Anyway, I am supporting idea of late season Magic find buff to offset people with slightly less time to fullfill desired to get Super gear up.
They are for people lacking Math skills.
Good suggestions.
Overall, I’d like to see a lot more of these in a game so that new players find their way easier, like for example value of item/skill based on overall usage of top players; AI for build suggestions and stats management; character reactions on item swap like “I feel stronger now; My fireball power increased etc”.
Everything that could be of help to the new player so that he “translates” the game rules easier is welcome.
Yes, it will have different results in different people. That’s why we need to help those that will feel defeated stopping with the game, because such people can put tons of hours later when they “got the idea”. It’s that simple line all of us cross in any game at one point or another when the game begins to feel super cool, because you actually managed to understand its mechanics.
P.S. I could of course write the half post in an alien language, but I want the topic to progress. 
I wasn’t considering season tbh, as I think the base game should still be fun to play. My reasoning is that I want to be hunting better items for my character for a very long time ! Also, 300h means just 1 month of farming for 12h-a-day players.
As for seasons, does it really matter if we don’t play it with BiS ? As long as it doesn’t impede on gameplay, it’s just bigger number of difficulty. I think it’s more important to have the incitement of loot right to the end.
But 300h may be too much, I don’t know. What I know is I played D2 for a very long time and yet many of the best items still eluded me, which kept me wanting to try and find them !
Most players play in the season, both D3 & PoE. It’s only natural to tune games for seasonal players.
Yes, I think the game should be tuned for BiS gears to be achievable in a season by dedicated players (2-3 hour average) with the time span.
We know there will e seasons in D4. We no nothing of what that means. Could it be 3 or 6 months, or something like DI around a month. Will it be a seasonal reset thing or nore like an MMO story patches?. If it’s going to be like D3/PoE then 300 hours for something is too long. If it’s more like an MMO, and hopefully it is, then 300+ is more than acceptable.
Yeah that is why I did not put hours on it. It is about gamers having fun while they progress and have items drop more as what exact item they loot and that is partly personal. Now in a way if people really need the bis of bis to have fun you might already have designed your game wrong or at least very narrowly and need to restart it time and time again quite quickly like D3 seasons. This can be designed on purpose of course and happens with many GaaS games, why make a very widely designed game with many progression levels if you intend to shake it up every one or two months anyway?
There is nothing wrong with dangling a carrot in front of a players nose to keep them interested either, just the wall to next satisfaction point for players should not be extreme high or unrewarding when gets there. That reward does not have to be all Bis items per se though especially since that is a reward you can give only once without restarts. Devs can and are allowed (maybe even should?) to frustrate your personal end goal, as long as they keep you having fun and interested.
Just dont have 3 month seasons. They are part of the problem in D3 imo.
Should be 6+ months at least. And make seasons something you ONLY do if you want a fresh start.
No exclusive themes, no benefits etc. (might offer some cosmetics of course).
Imo +specific skills add way too much RNG/specialization to items, making it unnecessarily harder to find decent items.
While +all skills is just the most boring affix ever created, doing a ton of harm to the itemization in D2.
+skill categories offers the right balance between the two.
An imaginary group of players.
Understanding D3 affixes dont require any complex math.
Now that should never happen. The game should tell you how things work. Nothing more than that. Dont tell players the “correct” way to play. Inspecting D3 leaderboards tbh is already quite silly.
And funny coming from someone who seem to hate the concept of build guides? Now you suddenly want them?
No, let them overcome the challenge on their own. You dont need to carry them. You are doing them a disservice.
Yeah, so maybe dont ruin that experience for people…
300 hours always sound like a lot when the number is just thrown out there.
But I think an important part is; if you can gear any one character in 300 hours, it means you can pretty much gear all characters in 300 hours. You are finding all kinds of gear along with the gear you wanted, that can be used on all other characters you might want to play (within the class, if we assume “smart loot”, otherwise across all classes). In that context 300 hours feels low.
I think a significant aspect is that; it isn’t the best items that should be rarest. It should just be diverse items that are rarest. Those items that eludes you for a long time doesn’t have to make your character stronger. it can just allow you to make new versions of builds that werent viable before.
Maybe you have a WW Crit Bleed Barb. But a very rare item allows you to make a WW Proc Bleed Barb. The latter is not stronger as such, merely different, getting rid of crit chance, in exchange for doubling down on the Bleed procs on everything you hit.
Horizontal progression more so than vertical progression in the very late endgame.
Leading back to, in 300 hours maybe it should be possible to get somewhat “BiS” gear for some version of a WW build. But not necessarily the exact version you wanted.
Not sure 2-3 hours count as dedicated in D3, even if it should.
But 3 hours per day for 6 months is still ~550 hours. For 3 month seasons ~275 hours.
300 hours to get reasonably good “BiS” gear would then be possible on average in a 3 month season. And very possible to do in a 6 month season.
That said, dont design the game around seasons in the first place. Most players in D3 and PoE play seasons because the game is designed for bribing people into doing so. If you dont design seasons like that, I bet it would not be as one-sided.
You can still have new content every 2-3 months. Just release it for both season and non-season at the same time. Within a single season, you might then have multiple content patches. The PoE and D3 season designs are just weird, favoring quantity over quality, and it is time to let go imo.
Yeah, imo hit is a positive, when players dont get what they want. That asks them to be creative, and figure out how to get the best out of what they have.
That feeling of ‘having to make do’, should be prolonged as much as reasonably possible.
I think he’s just projecting at this point.
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Understanding how to upgrade your character through the affixes does.
I am to favor easy copy/paste mechanics in a game with global meta so that casuals don’t feel like missing on gameplay. Planners on the other side should never appear when the Math is simplified.
They obviously won’t invest time to do this on their own and that’s why they need help. Today’s gaming market is way more different than what was in 2000. People play a game for some time and switch if they don’t progress. D4 won’t be something exceptional that will make newcomers try hard, on the other side - D4 is pretty outdated from what we know until now. Players are to leave it the second they don’t have fun anymore.
Wrong people actually prefer harder games. Games are harder than they used to be. Dark Souls has caused a revival of games that don’t hold your hand and Diablo should be exactly this. People absolutely will invest the time.
What? These are terrible suggestions. No thank you. AI for build suggestions is a big no no.
And super simplified for people lacking math skills…?
Who are you designing the game for, your 5 year old sister?
Exactly this.
People need to have a freedom like in D2. The only thing to take care of are bots and cheaters.
Yep, not only the Souls games. The resurgence of Roguelikes and lites, and indie titles in general, has brought with them a lot more games with challenges. Which is lovely.
Many AAA developers and publishers are still quite slow however, so we still end up with devs who think games need to look like this:
https://i.redd.it/sjmaiimvool81.jpg
It was completely pathetic when Ubisoft devs, as well as others, made fun of Elden Ring for not holding their players hands enough…
Good for you. What are you even complaining about then. You are getting exactly what you want. You can continue to follow and copy guides all you want.
Guides are not going anywhere. Unless we find a way to close down Youtube and most of the internet.
You are still trolling.
Let people overcome the challenges on their own. And if they fail, they fail.
You dont help people overcome a challenge by removing the challenge… You cant overcome something that isn’t there.
Maybe quit your concern-trolling and just talk about what you want, instead of hiding behind the needs of imaginary players. It seems pretty obvious you dont even believe they exist yourself.
Which is completely fine.
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Completely agree. This image is upsetting.
I really hope D4 isn’t like this at all.
exactly this. Not every game has to be for everyone or cater to the biggest denominator, unless you want your game to be bland and unchallenging in the end.
Know your market and if people do not belong to that market do not enjoy the game. That is fine, they were not your market anyway. It only becomes a problem if the players who are your market think game is no fun. Even if others take their place that want less challenge, cause you still missed the mark for your fans even if make more money and that bigger market tends to be way more fickle as the fans and the competition for mainstream audience is much bigger and intense. So can seem nice more turnover now for a bit and death as a company 10 years later since you have no market anymore or tried to hold a market you did not fit…
Today’s world is way more different than 2000. Most people don’t have time to grind for pixels and try hard.
It’s for the more casual players, others would uncheck it in options.
Guys, there’s no need for elitism and selfishness. Diablo must unite players, not separate them. That’s why bartering and scamming have to go. Endless paragon too.
Diablo is about making the player the hero that destroys the evil. Everyone has the right to be a hero feeling good. Guides popularity wouldn’t be so big on the Internet if people didn’t need help with games.
The truth is no one finds enjoyable meme features like rotation and gluing of static paragon boards for example. Or stupid big numbers and complex Math. There are hundreds of threads on reddit about that. People want simplified rules, easy copy/pasting and fun slot machine. Get in the game, farm a bit, find some new item, upgrade your build etc. Every player should be able to do this and have fun. Complex Math however stands in the way of fun.