DIABLO 4 Endgame Idea

General Discussion
1

Some gameplay ideas for D4 endgame.

Two infinite types of instanced “dungeons” where one type is solo run.
And the other one is with a full group.

Think of it a bit like how the Key system would work in WoW where you would add a risk to try a harder level at the cost of loosing the key or key level.

And the instance types shouldn’t be all just 100% random generated runs that use the same algorithm every run but just with harder enemies.

I think it would be fresh to actually have some what pre-designed “dungeons” with some slight random generation added to it. Again, if compared to WoW people have no problem doing the exact same dungeon layout over and over again. but with harder enemies that get new mechanics the higher you go.
Take that formula and add just a slight bit of randomness and you have some good content.

It would also add to the fact that you could frequently add new types of dungeons every x certain period of time. Including new enemies, loot and seasonal theme. Maybe even consider doing just seasonal releases adding 2-3 new dungeons to the already existing pool.

I think the biggest issue in D3 was that even tho it’s fun to grind for loot. The setup of the infinite portal was basically not unique enough and quite repetitive in the sense that the environments that do “change” with the random generation weren’t significant to the gameplay that much.

So I truly believe that pre-designed specific dungeons would have a bigger impact and add a future proof release cycle of content that would excite a large audience. That type of structure works so well for so many other categories of games. Even Path of Exile has been able to survive for so long due to their constant releases of new content.

Another part to keep D4 alive would be to design a subscription model to keep gaining funds for further development. I think the hardest part of how people are used to playin diablo games is that you pay once and you play forever.
The problem with that is of course that it does boost the economy for D4 a lot in the beginning. There is nothing else in the future that makes you money with further releases. Doing big expansions and selling those is not the best for the game either, because they take much longer to develop and people play the game for long enough to get bored without anything new.

One way is of course cosmetics. But that’s only a minority that care about them. It is usually then not enough to support the server costs and further development.

I think on top of that a meaningful season pass would be your best bet.
Hardest think to balance there is you don’t want to make it pay to win. And you don’t want to make it mandatory for users to enjoy the game. That means a season pass would have to contain something like extra challenges that reward you with cosmetics and/or quality of life features. Like maybe a faster/cooler mount on the last challenge or something.
It’s just something to get users more engaged and also have an additional source of income for the game.

It’s sad to see a great game be released, but then die because of lack of content or not fast enough delivery of future content.
It has to be clear to players that they should buy things like season passes to support the development.

Sorry for a long post. Hope this reaches at least a discussion on a meeting or something :slight_smile: Keep up the good work!

2

How about no?
How many Diablo games must be ruined by this nonsense?

And also, how about we get back the semi loot tables we had back in D1 and D2, where we could limit the difficulty and exclude all the higher level items from the loot table, so that we can somewhat target the items we’re farming, so that it’s not all “random, random, random”…

Because, contrary to the nonsense I read too often, Diablo games were not, are not and should not be all about randomness!

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4

I fear that either fanbase has something going on with gambler’s fallacy or suffering from limited imagination. Nigh infinite scaling in PvE is not really practical or healthy to begin with and it would break other aspects of the game by introducing high power level. They tried this with D3 because it didn’t have trade but as a side effect it caused strain on servers due to paced up combat with ever growing effective health of monsters while also power creep killing brawl/PvP slowly.

Level caps and fixated affixes, this is so Diablo 2; level scaling items and all random affixes, this is so Diablo 3. I clearly remember developers mentioned “not replicating D2 or D3” once. I think this is a conundrum.
Why yes, you “may” have it as nothing is certain. They’re just gauging the engagement from both fanbases to be sure and I love poking at this. Thinking that items will have a trade value and game being an MMO-lite, I believe level capped items are a must for balancing both ends of the player scale on terms of levels.

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5

A fantastic idea for an endgame system is having deep in type and rare in chance to find loot. Tried and true. The true endgame to D2 is collecting ultra, insanely, rare, nerdfest, but cool, items.

Why can’t that be the most hc of hc endgames for D4?
take away rare loot in diablo 2, the game would be still out of this world cool, but, not quite, as, you’d have nothing TO do. Like, nothing, but pvp.

Its loot that kept D2 going to this day.
Among a bunch of other things like look purpose sounds feels and style.
But loot is the core of it all.

Endless games and all that are great but loot being deep, rare, and zone based is critical, along w combat being great like D2 and not like D3’s excuse for “combat”.

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More like “this is so RoS”…
In Vanilla D3 people farmed Leoric’s ring on Dahlgur Oasis on normal.
Hell, even in the start of RoS where loot tables were fixed per game, people would limit the lvl of the game by hosting with a lower level character, parking him in town, they would farm to see if Kridershot is available, then they would pull a max level version out of gamble.

So no, this mechanic is not exclusive to D1 and D2. It was in D3 as well, it’s just that it not it in now as far as I can tell.

I am not saying they should be replicating either game. There are good things in both games, but unfortunately D2 has a better overall structure, that allows you to earn specific things, when in D3 now it’s all random.

Huh?
Dude, you can argue, that D2 was an MMO-lite. It is certainly more of an MMO than something like Destiny 2.

Level capped items is a nonsensical BS. Let people farm what they like.
If you farm a lower level area, sure you’re maximizing the chance to get a specific thing, but there’s also the trade off of you getting less exp.
Kinda like D3 bounties. If you’re doing bounties, you’re getting crap exp.

Items having a trade value has little or nothing to do with balancing anything. Things balance themselves out. If the item is easier to obtain, because it can be farmed by a lower level character, then it will be more abundant and the price will be cheaper.

The only thing lvl capped items achieves is, that everything can drop out of everything, you have no way to target anything and then you’re FORCED to trade or wait forever till you get the item. Makes the game dull and less enjoyable.

If they want the game to succeed, they should structure it in a way that makes sense… and when I say that, I mean within the context of the franchise, not within the context of “MMO lite” or whatever. LvL capped items in D3 doesn’t make sense… it’s simply stupid.

It was made in D3 to push you into the RMAH. It wasn’t made to make the game good or balanced…

Oh, and one more thing you should think about.
Max lvl cap is 40. Expansions or DLCs can potentially raise the lvl cap. Do you want all your gear to become useless in a Diablo setting, because pseudo-MMO?

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If only the game itself supported that endgame and you didn’t need to actually mod the game in order to have enough stash space to store those insanely rare items…

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I like the idea of structured dungeons with a certain loot table. Allow the structure to slightly alter, but limit what can drop in that particular dungeon. It gives a sense of uniqueness. Same goes for zones.

For endgame I have to agree with having certain limitations. Infinite scaling doesn’t seem fulfilling. Instead, go for incredibly difficult challenges or quests. Similar to D2 Ubers.

RMAH didn’t work out in D3, I don’t see the need to introduce this. I’m cool with buying a couple expansions. If the game is good, it will sell itself. Ladder pass isn’t the worst idea, or an entrance fee. Maybe even both that and cosmetic shop, could introduce some sort of ladder reward for completion.

I still don’t know how I feel about that level 40 cap though…

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Sure, stash space.
Besides that one thing, the game supports it.
Also, mules while annoying are a work around, technically.

Obvi you know that, just pointing out there IS a way, even if it’s completely annoying.

Personally i think mods are lame i only like playing games how they were meant to be played and we all deal with the puzzle in front of us thought out by the devs, not by fans trying to doctor it up. Like, fan made things are just “well i want the game this way” even if it’s right, its not the true way the game was released by the devs.

Everyone else on the planet loves mods can’t get enough of them dreams of mods, im like, no, i like how the devs meant the game to be played, and if we find a work around w/o a mod, that’s how we play, like mules.

Obvi if the devs were able to patch the game and like add 50 thousand stash spots, sure, i’d acccept, but if a superfan like me u and anyone else mods it, its like, gross, impure.

But not enough ppl understand clearly not u but others that diablo 2’s big endgame is ultracrazyrare item collecting. It’s not “content” like beating ubers p8. Its bc any content they make that ISNT something off balance like inferno, will be eaten alive by youtube and info share in like the shortest time possible and spread everywhere to 5g phones that barely work but like the 4g part does. Games need to plan for that, and diablo 2 did accidentally and it worked.

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There are still things to do. 1) Character building and replaying the whole game with them, this is an RPG part of the game. 2) Tournaments with special rules that people make for themselves. Don’t forget that ARPG is not only about loot, but also about killing demons. And killing demons, the very process, the combat itself IS the core, not the loot. Loot comes as a next core thing. Starting fresh chars is a great thing, and I see it happening 24/7 in D2 even now.

For endgame I have to agree with having certain limitations. Infinite scaling doesn’t seem fulfilling. Instead, go for incredibly difficult challenges or quests. Similar to D2 Ubers.

Yes, POE does this and does it RIGHT. Every league they introduce new very hard bosses. It is hard even to get to them, let alone kill.

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This has nothing to do with specific drop rate. Finding a homunculus and leoric ring back in D3 classic wasn’t an easy task due their drop rate and they worthed millions of gold.

D3 classic didn’t have level scaled items. The leoric ring you found in oasis always was lvl21. You’re talking like you have Kanai’s cube in D4 so you can extract legendary power or a low level item could benefit you stat wise with lower base roll range.

Here, you perfectly described a level capped item system. Even mentioned D1 and D2. You just complained about people couldn’t target anything and only get random stuff. Then blurted out this:

What do you mean? Am I confusing you with another user?

With level scaling items to your level how exactly you expect people to filter loot tables? Once they hit lvl40 or so entire loot table will be available, however their stats will grow and they’ll be more equip worthy.
If you’re talking about farming specific area for crafting the said item then maybe. If not, there’s no guarantee that having an item at lvl20 would benefit you in anyway with less stats. I failed to follow your thoughts, maybe detail them?

12

Well yea, char rerolling is critical bc it forces u to inject time into a new char or have money to get a token (a very debatable patch that happened to 2, obvi a 1 pt switchback should of always been there to prevent panic attacks from clicking twice or changing your mind after trying a skill 1 time) but whole build tokens are like, free swap skills if the barrier to get that token isn’t a barrier effectively.

But yes rerolling chars is super core to replayability, forced reroll not open skills.

And yes combat too but that’s not ‘endgame’ like “killing monsters a really fun way” isn’t endgame itself, its what you do while pursuing and endgame, such as loot, or in d3’s case greater rifts.

Im in no disagreement that forced reroll, 1 pt skill back, and d2 style combat is critical like missing attacks, how unrealistic is that to always hit like how d3 did it it’s so botched spun as better.

But the pt is, endgame would be defined as a goal id say, and killing monsters a really good way, isn’t a ‘goal’ its what you do in pursuit of a goal, like, collecting ultra rare loot, which should be the endgame, and sure greater rifts aren’t a badd ADD on, but not the core of the game.

Its so so so easy to dev a d2-style game its not rocket science to understand all the little things and how they matter, and how the whole 2010 or so devving that went into d3 is just trash design. And, the D4 way so far, is not looking good, its not looking veteran, its looking like d3 all zoomed in and bouncy hop char and yea.

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D4 endgame should be boss raid, and no, I am not talking about Baal run. I mean something like FF14 where you fight super duper bosses together with a lot of strangers at the same time.

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My request regarding Diablo 4 endgame is that there are multiple different activities that are all challenging and rewarding (not like Diablo 3, where the only rewarding and challenging endgame content is greater rift); and that they are available to solo and group players.

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Jesus Christ, have you played D2?
There the stats of items don’t grow based on your level (with the exception of crafted amulets). SoJ is just as good if you find it from Diablo on normal, Andariel on Nightmare or Baal on hell.

If items scale with level, the moment they increase the level cap with an expansion or DLC (which they are likely to do), all your items will become useless. We’ve already had that nonsense in D3, how about we get a Diablo game, that is closer to what the franchise is.
Stop thinking in terms of D3, WoW or MMO. Start thinking what makes sense in Diablo.

Or if you insist so much on stats growing with level, how about having a recipe, that upscales the stats of the items to a max lvl in a similar fashion to what Brevik had in Marvel Heroes, or to how in D2 you could upscale a normal lvl unique to a nightmare version of the item, then to a hell version…

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Who cares if the content is eaten alive online. The only thing that matters, is whether you can beat it or not.

I see talk of greater rifts and I say, let those be the key’d dungeons. Setup a hard to get-to boss, with rotating mechanics, and have it drop crafting materials and a key.

As long as it’s there’s no infinite scaling or paragon levels. If there has to be something like that, just extend level cap and make it very difficult to max.

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One, have you seen the quarter reports for D4? There’s a linear growth on attack power being part of usual defense-health stats trio and angelic-demonic-ancestral system already. That means, not me only but D4 developers think at the terms of D3 and MMO.
Address the itemization and stat system first if you want to convey something particular. D2 didn’t have scaling instances like D3 or D4 promised to do either; D2 has a very limited difficulty scale and complex stats on monsters as well.

Two, can you try to make sense on your own by disregarding Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 for once? I mean, I can not make a coherent sense out of your posts. One moment you’re complaining about level capped items by calling them “BS”, next moment you sound like you want them and call them “part of the franchise” just to retract that idea again.
Are you trying to gauge my reaction or are you not capable of using terms correctly? Make up your mind because there’s a clear miscommunication here. I even read our posts twice to be sure to give you some credit, so congratz. I still don’t know what do you even mean or sure have you played D2 even once.

If you’re finding lvl20 req leoric’s ring or set sharkskin belt as a lvl60 character, that means it’s level capped and not level scaled. If I’m finding lvl70 leoric’s ring that supposed to start dropping by lvl20 as a lvl70 character, then it’s level scaled.
Franchise of Diablo had level capped items where you hunt them by area-monster level thresholds from the start. I just pointed that out and you called the system “such BS”. You called the level cap system being at fault without reasoning and I clearly asked you how do you plan on filtering anything without a level cap system.

If items scale with character level then how do you plan on giving player a filter without locking the items away from them? Area based? That’s locking the items and crafted items work better if you plan on anything close to that.
Try to make sense; when you look down on the system after clearly stating that you want it, you just don’t make any sense. I can not tell if you’re ironic or not behind a monitor. Have you forgot to log off for your alt account or are you just confused as much as I was?

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OK, if you’re gonna use those terms, I want lvl capped items. I don’t want them to scale with level…
Maybe there should be recipe, that allows weapons to scale.
Does that make sense?

19

There you go. Thank you. Now that started to make sense.

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Yeah no. They stated you can get the best gear playing solo, nothing is locked behind a group. Now, if this raid bosses only dropped trash and were there for the challenge, then I might be in favor.

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Yeah, I’m in favor of a solo only Ubers-like challenge but think it would be too hard to allow somewhst randomized mechanics without messing with the balance. The goal is to make most build choices viable right? (Or at least somewhat).

If you start gear scaling by level, are you going to start scaling monster level too?